Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

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Given that all those articles I shared had links to data , I'd say they were pretty reliable.

Not sure what else you want as evidence? I gave you stats and even the who website.

But as I said yesterday , didn't matter what I shared, it would be dismissed out of hand anyway so there you go.



My point is that basing an opinion on a series of numbers without taking into account varying factors doesn't make them true. Which in that case, the information was out of date, didn't factor medical history, the point disregarded the age bracket and other external factors such as smoking.

The overall point is that just because you are told something doesn't make it true, especially when you are just repeating said data without any real context.

After all I did say the numbers were exagerated and so has scientists recently with an urgent review taking place by the government.

The point is, I challenged the data with actual logical variables. Variables that do change the narrative of the data but if variables are just disregarded now then there's no value in data.

Saying it kills men more than women without any context or reason why (which was said to me , that's not an assumption) is ridiculous. Medical history , health , age and even smoking history factor into it and change the narrative. If more men smoked for example and therefore does at an old age because of a respiratory virus then that isn't down to mast cells and more to do with medical history. Completely different story.

Except apparantly none of that matters. Noone is I retested in actually having a discussion rather than shouting you are wrong because of this list of numbers form 3 months ago.
I had a quick look at the links you provided, a couple of things I notice.

1. None of them are stating conclusions (as I expected) Epidemiology is not an exact science and by nature, requires interpretation of data. That will be the same for all epidemiological data, it is all down to interpretation. That is where peer review really comes into it. Without peer review, any conclusions can be made, no matter how spurious or fanciful. Proper peer review reduces that likelihood.

2. One of the articles state that 35% of men smoke compared to 6% women. If smoking were a significant factor, one would expect there to be a much higher percentage of men succumbing to Covid. As it is something like 55% male, a fair conclusion is that smoking plays a very minor role at best.

3. The links you provided raised more questions than answers (as a lot of good scientific studies do). However there is nothing in there that would shift me from the current accepted narrative. It would be interesting though to review those links again in a few weeks when they have completed further research and analysis.

4. It is great that lots of different organisations and research bodies are asking these questions and trying to drill the data as far as it can go.

5. The guys who are making decisions for us will have access to a lot more data than we do. While the governments may not always apply their recommendations, I have a lot of faith in the information and analysis they provide. I don't have faith in the media to accurately and fully report their findings.
 
I had a quick look at the links you provided, a couple of things I notice.

1. None of them are stating conclusions (as I expected) Epidemiology is not an exact science and by nature, requires interpretation of data. That will be the same for all epidemiological data, it is all down to interpretation. That is where peer review really comes into it. Without peer review, any conclusions can be made, no matter how spurious or fanciful. Proper peer review reduces that likelihood.

2. One of the articles state that 35% of men smoke compared to 6% women. If smoking were a significant factor, one would expect there to be a much higher percentage of men succumbing to Covid. As it is something like 55% male, a fair conclusion is that smoking plays a very minor role at best.

3. The links you provided raised more questions than answers (as a lot of good scientific studies do). However there is nothing in there that would shift me from the current accepted narrative. It would be interesting though to review those links again in a few weeks when they have completed further research and analysis.

4. It is great that lots of different organisations and research bodies are asking these questions and trying to drill the data as far as it can go.

5. The guys who are making decisions for us will have access to a lot more data than we do. While the governments may not always apply their recommendations, I have a lot of faith in the information and analysis they provide. I don't have faith in the media to accurately and fully report their findings.
See that's the point though. I haven't been trying to provide answers, I have been trying to question the narrative.

For example it all started with me disagreeing that it kills more men than women. You have kinda agreed with me there on that front which was the point I'm making.

It's not about me telling you what's going on, I am merely questioning the narrative. If you don't agree with me then fine, that's not the point of a discussion. It saddens me that rather than actual discuss, even this site is more interested in telling you that you are wrong and cut you off as quick as possible.

My question is, why aren't I allowed to question it given you say scientific bodies are also questioning it? Just because I'm not a scientist doesn't mean I can't question it? I've proven that I'm not pulling theories out the air and there is data out there that support the possible variations on the data.

It's just the issue that I'm not allowed to question it. I'm not allowed to say I disagree with something , as replies in this thread have evidentially shown, if I disagree I'm talking bollocks. Yet taking research and theories (theories not proven may I add) so literal is fine as long as someone doesn't question that.

I'm not posting conspiracy theories here, I'm posting questions essentially . Is that now not allowed?
 
See that's the point though. I haven't been trying to provide answers, I have been trying to question the narrative.

For example it all started with me disagreeing that it kills more men than women. You have kinda agreed with me there on that front which was the point I'm making.

It's not about me telling you what's going on, I am merely questioning the narrative. If you don't agree with me then fine, that's not the point of a discussion. It saddens me that rather than actual discuss, even this site is more interested in telling you that you are wrong and cut you off as quick as possible.

My question is, why aren't I allowed to question it given you say scientific bodies are also questioning it? Just because I'm not a scientist doesn't mean I can't question it? I've proven that I'm not pulling theories out the air and there is data out there that support the possible variations on the data.

It's just the issue that I'm not allowed to question it. I'm not allowed to say I disagree with something , as replies in this thread have evidentially shown, if I disagree I'm talking bollocks. Yet taking research and theories (theories not proven may I add) so literal is fine as long as someone doesn't question that.

I'm not posting conspiracy theories here, I'm posting questions essentially . Is that now not allowed?
I think those questions would be better answered by the mods rather than me :cheers:
 
See that's the point though. I haven't been trying to provide answers, I have been trying to question the narrative.

For example it all started with me disagreeing that it kills more men than women. You have kinda agreed with me there on that front which was the point I'm making.

It's not about me telling you what's going on, I am merely questioning the narrative. If you don't agree with me then fine, that's not the point of a discussion. It saddens me that rather than actual discuss, even this site is more interested in telling you that you are wrong and cut you off as quick as possible.

My question is, why aren't I allowed to question it given you say scientific bodies are also questioning it? Just because I'm not a scientist doesn't mean I can't question it? I've proven that I'm not pulling theories out the air and there is data out there that support the possible variations on the data.

It's just the issue that I'm not allowed to question it. I'm not allowed to say I disagree with something , as replies in this thread have evidentially shown, if I disagree I'm talking bollocks. Yet taking research and theories (theories not proven may I add) so literal is fine as long as someone doesn't question that.

I'm not posting conspiracy theories here, I'm posting questions essentially . Is that now not allowed?
I think you may find that those scientists which are still questioning the data are actually doing some further research to try and gain deeper understanding. That is quite a difference to people on the internet just saying "I don't believe it" but have nothing of value to add.
Not saying that is what you are doing, but there are so many people now such as anti-vaxxers, climate change deniers, kopites etc, that people do get tired of the "tin foil hat" brigade that just can't see sense, and instant rebuttal is quite a natural reaction.
 
Ok I'll play game

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/06/covid19-mortality-rates-men-women/

Suggests infection rates are the same in both male and female, suggesting the mast cell gender difference which has been the leading point here fair enough.

https://globalhealth5050.org/covid19/

This one suggests that many countries (taken from a global tracker) do not publish results for gender or even in some cases age. Which ties into my point about the data available being limited.

https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/smoking-and-covid-19

This one although shows no peer approved research as of currently (there are ones planned). It does show local studies that state the significant influence of smoking in covid-19 serious cases , almost like that could be a factor in the severity of the virus (one of the variable factors I talked about).

https://ourworldindata.org/whowho-smokes-more-men-or-women

This one shows (links in article) that significantly more men than women smoke worldwide. Therefore it isn't beyond the realms to suggest that this could be a varying reason as to why more men are dying due to covid-19 rather than genetics.

There's a few I knocked out.

Essentially when I'm talking about varying factors in the information , there's some cases where smoking could absolutely be a factor in male to female severity given that the infection rates are similar. If men significantly smoke more then that is absolutely a varying factors that could influence a male to female mortality rate to a respiratory virus.

Now you can come back to me and say oh but that's not all peer reviewed as someone has done before. However the mast cell theory has no results either, yet I'm told I have to take that on face value.

If you want to keep playing then give us a shout. I can regurgitate statistics back just as much as you guys want to. Doesn't change the fact I'm not reading that information and spitting it back.

Kinda sad really that it's fine for one side to dismiss an opinion based in flawed information and make the other offer actual evidence that suggests what they are saying.

It's not proving the existence of big foot but it proves my point that external factors COULD be a factor in the data that isn't being considered by one side of this discussion currently.
You know some people are so far behind in a race they actually think they are winning
 
Hospital figures - 19 is the announced total, 7 up on yesterday and 8 up on last Wednesday. 14 were in English hospitals, up 2 on yesterday and up 4 on last week with 13 occurring in the past 10 days. The other 5 of today’s total came in Welsh hospitals
 
The virus affects minorities more , yet it doesnt. It affects males more , yet it doesn't. Everyone is dying from it , except they aren't.


Well now I am genuinely confused. The issue is whether Covid affects men more, which you dispute. And by "affects" we can take to mean that men get more serious cases of Covid and are also more likely to die.

But then you cite this:

Suggests infection rates are the same in both male and female, suggesting the mast cell gender difference which has been the leading point here fair enough.

And in that article, they write: According to the Global Health 50-50 initiative nearly every country is now reporting significantly higher COVID-19-related mortality rates in males than in females as of June 4. Yet, current data suggest similar infection rates for men and women. In other words, while men and women are being infected with COVID-19 at similar rates, a significantly higher proportion of men succumb to the disease than women, across groups of similar age. Why is it then that more men are dying from COVID-19? Or rather, should we be asking why are more women surviving?

So, you seem to agree with me and Lineker's Legs that Covid has increased mortality in men versus women? I'm very puzzled.

And then you point to the globalhealth 5050 data base saying that

...many countries (taken from a global tracker) do not publish results for gender or even in some cases age. Which ties into my point about the data available being limited.

But that same database provides tons of information by country, showing that the vast majority of countries both present sex disaggregated data and that males die at a higher rate than females. As you see below, the right most column is the proportion of deaths as a ratio of male to female so any number over 1 means more males are dying. And you can see that only a few countries (Slovenia, Finland) have a lower than 1 ratio and only five countries have a ratio of exactly 1, whereas the rest of the countries have a ratio above 1, indicating more deaths for males relative to females. So I'm still very confused by your point.

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And then you move onto smoking as a cofactor in causing more male deaths than female deaths, since in many countries there are more male smokers than female smokers. But if you look at Sweden it has a death ratio of 1.7 deaths, but in Sweden (in 2016) smoking is both low overall and equal among men and women (about 19%). See this chart below. Same goes for Denmark: smoking among men and women is equal, but the covid death ratio is 1.7.
sdfew.png


I also find your logic regarding cofactors unconvincing. Even if men and women have equal infection rates, this doesn't rule out the idea that men get more severe cases of Covid and are more likely to die from it. In other words, being a male is a cofactor in explaing the sex-biased death rates, which is the same thing as saying women have some intrinsic biological property that makes them survive, which is the same thing as saying that men, by virtue of being male, are more likely to die. So, I'm not exactly sure what your point is. Even if men smoke more than women, if they get Covid, they die from Covid, so exactly what is your point regarding smoking? They are not dying from lung cancer or COPD.

Then you go on to write this below, which is difficult to interpret. You seem to imply that you are reading sources (no one is questioning your reading ability since this is an internet forum) and that we are "sad" because we have asked you to offer evidence. But this is exactly what you need to do. The data, as shown quite clearly above, show that men die more than women. You dispute this. So the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence of your case. And the evidence you linked to above was not convincing and in fact supported the very point you were trying to argue against.

You end with another claim of "COULD", to which I can only refer you back to my post about the burden of proof and the fallacy of absence of evidence, which in your case is basically saying, "I can't provide strong counter evidence, but it COULD be different in the future."

If you want to keep playing then give us a shout. I can regurgitate statistics back just as much as you guys want to. Doesn't change the fact I'm not reading that information and spitting it back.

Kinda sad really that it's fine for one side to dismiss an opinion based in flawed information and make the other offer actual evidence that suggests what they are saying.

It's not proving the existence of big foot but it proves my point that external factors COULD be a factor in the data that isn't being considered by one side of this discussion currently.


So, to sum up:
--53 out of 60 countries have a higher male death rate; and these are data taken from a link you provided suggesting that most countries don't report sex-aggregated data.
--Smoking may be a cofactor (but many studies have controlled for this), but this doesn't negate the fact that males die more often than females from Covid, and it doesn't explain why in countries where smoking rates are equal among males and females there remains a male-biased death rate.
--The burden of proof rests on you to show how and why you feel the male-biased death rates are wrong, and this is because the established pattern is that male-biased death rates exist at present.
--Saying "things could change in the future" is an empty and specious statement that is so universally applicable that it could applies to any dispute or circumstance, including the fact that male deaths rates might increase rather than decrease.
 
Well now I am genuinely confused. The issue is whether Covid affects men more, which you dispute. And by "affects" we can take to mean that men get more serious cases of Covid and are also more likely to die.

But then you cite this:


And in that article, they write: According to the Global Health 50-50 initiative nearly every country is now reporting significantly higher COVID-19-related mortality rates in males than in females as of June 4. Yet, current data suggest similar infection rates for men and women. In other words, while men and women are being infected with COVID-19 at similar rates, a significantly higher proportion of men succumb to the disease than women, across groups of similar age. Why is it then that more men are dying from COVID-19? Or rather, should we be asking why are more women surviving?

So, you seem to agree with me and Lineker's Legs that Covid has increased mortality in men versus women? I'm very puzzled.

And then you point to the globalhealth 5050 data base saying that



But that same database provides tons of information by country, showing that the vast majority of countries both present sex disaggregated data and that males die at a higher rate than females. As you see below, the right most column is the proportion of deaths as a ratio of male to female so any number over 1 means more males are dying. And you can see that only a few countries (Slovenia, Finland) have a lower than 1 ratio and only five countries have a ratio of exactly 1, whereas the rest of the countries have a ratio above 1, indicating more deaths for males relative to females. So I'm still very confused by your point.

View attachment 95937
View attachment 95938
View attachment 95939

And then you move onto smoking as a cofactor in causing more male deaths than female deaths, since in many countries there are more male smokers than female smokers. But if you look at Sweden it has a death ratio of 1.7 deaths, but in Sweden (in 2016) smoking is both low overall and equal among men and women (about 19%). See this chart below. Same goes for Denmark: smoking among men and women is equal, but the covid death ratio is 1.7.
View attachment 95940


I also find your logic regarding cofactors unconvincing. Even if men and women have equal infection rates, this doesn't rule out the idea that men get more severe cases of Covid and are more likely to die from it. In other words, being a male is a cofactor in explaing the sex-biased death rates, which is the same thing as saying women have some intrinsic biological property that makes them survive, which is the same thing as saying that men, by virtue of being male, are more likely to die. So, I'm not exactly sure what your point is. Even if men smoke more than women, if they get Covid, they die from Covid, so exactly what is your point regarding smoking? They are not dying from lung cancer or COPD.

Then you go on to write this below, which is difficult to interpret. You seem to imply that you are reading sources (no one is questioning your reading ability since this is an internet forum) and that we are "sad" because we have asked you to offer evidence. But this is exactly what you need to do. The data, as shown quite clearly above, show that men die more than women. You dispute this. So the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence of your case. And the evidence you linked to above was not convincing and in fact supported the very point you were trying to argue against.

You end with another claim of "COULD", to which I can only refer you back to my post about the burden of proof and the fallacy of absence of evidence, which in your case is basically saying, "I can't provide strong counter evidence, but it COULD be different in the future."




So, to sum up:
--53 out of 60 countries have a higher male death rate; and these are data taken from a link you provided suggesting that most countries don't report sex-aggregated data.
--Smoking may be a cofactor (but many studies have controlled for this), but this doesn't negate the fact that males die more often than females from Covid, and it doesn't explain why in countries where smoking rates are equal among males and females there remains a male-biased death rate.
--The burden of proof rests on you to show how and why you feel the male-biased death rates are wrong, and this is because the established pattern is that male-biased death rates exist at present.
--Saying "things could change in the future" is an empty and specious statement that is so universally applicable that it could applies to any dispute or circumstance, including the fact that male deaths rates might increase rather than decrease.


Oof brutal
 
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