Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

[Jebus_lives]

I’ve only ever been stopped by the police one and that was in Croxteth right after the whole Rhys Jones thing.

And I’m from one of the roughest places in Liverpool. I reject the narrative that it is class over colour.

Surely the measures that would benefit BAME lives would also benefit other sectors of society also at a disadvantage. It's such an odd argument to dismiss it.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

Unlike BAME people?

Simply put anyone in 2020 Britain can make something of themself I believe - I grew up in a poor background, from a broken family home with the exact same hurdles and obstacles of having no money or support and yet I made something of myself, I was the first person in my family to go to university whereas I know quite a few lads (white and black) who had the same circumstances as me growing up but have done nothing with their lives and make excuses for it and it doesnt wash for me.

My manager in my old work was BAME, alot of owners of some very big and expensive houses on my estate are BAME with kids who I believe some go to a fancy school not too far away

You can make anything of yourself in this country - the only obstacle largely is the class system but I believe if you work hard enough you can beat it.

 

[PhilM]

I’ve only ever been stopped by the police one and that was in Croxteth right after the whole Rhys Jones thing.

And I’m from one of the roughest places in Liverpool. I reject the narrative that it is class over colour.

Are the young men, who are stopped in Croxteth or Norris Green etc. on a regular basis, stopped because they are white? There are no other factors?

To dismiss other narratives is to suggest that colour is the only factor, which I suggest other people and myself are saying is not the truth.

Colour may be an issue in some circumstances, but in all?

 

[Kenshin]

No it just proves police stop people more in crime ridden areas.

The estate I live on now (nice new build) has alot of Asian families and you never see a cop car about. Compare that to where I grew up on and police cars/helicopters were a regular thing.

Im not saying there aint racist cops about in the UK - just that alot of those stop and searches are more than likely just cops doing their job.

With resources such bare thanks to Tory cuts I doubt most bobbies have the time or efforts to go out of their way making life hard for one set of people.

People in the UK carry on like its the Deep South of America when for the majority of cases it isnt.

Class System - not racism.

I often wonder that point.

Are black people more likely to be stopped in areas where there is crime such as areas of London? I've never heard of it happening in Liverpool in anywhere the same way.

I don't believe there is any police racism in this country, certainly not to any extent compared to America. A white ketwig is just as likely to be stopped and searched for example than anyone else for good reason.

But then I'm in the belief that we don't have real racism in this country anymore on the streets. Workplaces etc a different story but then to what extent is it racism and not just institutionalised structure that has never changed? That people aren't being picked on skin colour but simply there aren't as many in those sectors to begin with.

I know for a fact the NHS employs on quota and actively employs minorities , disabilities etc. Not in a way that discriminates as such but one that tries to be inclusive. There is plenty of nepotism and handing out jobs however.

It's easy to find racism if you look hard enough and assume meaning (which is a whole other issue) but is there real racism? I know plenty will say YES THERE IS as that is the current narrative but I think there is a difference between dying because of your skin colour and someone saying a nasty word to you.

 

[Nobby Nobbs]

Would you ever openly admit it if you did though?

Would you not take your daughters word for it.

 

[Kenshin]

I’ve only ever been stopped by the police one and that was in Croxteth right after the whole Rhys Jones thing.

And I’m from one of the roughest places in Liverpool. I reject the narrative that it is class over colour.

Doesn't this support the fact it's not down to racism then?

Like I say a ketwig scally in a north face trakkie hanging round on the streets is just as likely (if not more) to be searched by police and it has nothing to do with race.

 

[Nymzee]

Would you not take your daughters word for it.

Of course just saying it's not something someone would admit is it. Especially right now.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Simply put anyone in 2020 Britain can make something of themself I believe - I grew up in a poor background, from a broken family home with the exact same hurdles and obstacles of having no money or support and yet I made something of myself, I was the first person in my family to go to university whereas I know quite a few lads (white and black) who had the same circumstances as me growing up but have done nothing with their lives and make excuses for it and it doesnt wash for me.

My manager in my old work was BAME, alot of owners of some very big and expensive houses on my estate are BAME with kids who I believe some go to a fancy school not too far away

You can make anything of yourself in this country - the only obstacle largely is the class system but I believe if you work hard enough you can beat it.

The point would be, that even where those from the same circumstances, who are at a disadvantage because of socioeconomic factors; you are more likely to experience obstacles to progression and attainment because of the colour of your skin.

The SAGE report indicates that, because there is no genetic (not ethnicity before people start confusing the two) difference between BAME people and White people.

The fact is that if you are BAME you are more likely to be at a socioeconomic disadvantage - not that if you are white you cannot be at a disadvantage.

 

[PhilM]

Are black people more likely to be stopped in areas where there is crime such as areas of London? I've never heard of it happening in Liverpool in anywhere the same way.

I don't believe there is any police racism in this country, certainly not to any extent compared to America. A white ketwig is just as likely to be stopped and searched for example than anyone else for good reason.

There's a different between institutionalised racism within the police and the racism of certain officers / groups of officers. It's the same with society in general.

There's also a stark difference between stopping someone solely as they are X and stopping someone because current intelligence highlights X, Y and Z.

In some counties, there's a current crisis of white men in their late teens and early twenties from travelling communities stealing plant machinery at night time.

They are disproportionately involved in this crime. White men of this age, driving in vans and at night are more likely to be stopped than in normal circumstances.

That is quasi- racial profiling but the argument would be that it is justifiable because of the intelligence. Stopping a white man because they're white alone is not.

It's a difficult and complex balance.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

The point would be, that even where those from the same circumstances, who are at a disadvantage because of socioeconomic factors; you are more likely to experience obstacles to progression and attainment because of the colour of your skin.

The SAGE report indicates that, because there is no genetic (not ethnicity before people start confusing the two) difference between BAME people and White people.

The fact is that if you are BAME you are more likely to be at a socioeconomic disadvantage - not that if you are white you cannot be at a disadvantage.

Can this be 100% proven in life in 2020 Britain though?

How can it be proven is what I always think - like Sol Campbell believes he doesn't get top jobs because he is black - where is the proof of that?

Im all for standing against discrimination as discrimination in my eyes is bullying and I hate bullies but alot of modern media reporting of "racism" in this country I find to be alot circumstantial based.

Like if a BAME person gets stopped by police - its automatically racism

If a BAME person doesnt get a job promotion - its automatically racism

If a BAME person doesn't get a place at their main choice university - its automatically racism

Im not saying racism doesnt go on in society - but Im yet to see proof that the Govt, employers, education establishments are some cabal unite who go out of their way to favour white people.

I agree completely that alot of BAME from poor backgrounds is the result of historic racism and a lack of opportunity that their parents and grandparents faced - but you cant use that as a measurement of how racist UK is as a society these days imo.

 

[mill]

The point would be, that even where those from the same circumstances, who are at a disadvantage because of socioeconomic factors; you are more likely to experience obstacles to progression and attainment because of the colour of your skin.

The SAGE report indicates that, because there is no genetic (not ethnicity before people start confusing the two) difference between BAME people and White people.

The fact is that if you are BAME you are more likely to be at a socioeconomic disadvantage - not that if you are white you cannot be at a disadvantage.

Yes.
Does it mean that BAME people cannot be successful? No.
But the fact is they are over represented in the lower classes and underrepresented in the upper classes.
To say that race isn’t a factor would be a stretch. This isn’t bee stings and ice cream sales.

 

[mill]

Can this be 100% proven in life in 2020 Britain though?

How can it be proven is what I always think - like Sol Campbell believes he doesn't get top jobs because he is black - where is the proof of that?

Im all for standing against discrimination as discrimination in my eyes is bullying and I hate bullies but alot of modern media reporting of "racism" in this country I find to be alot circumstantial based.

Like if a BAME person gets stopped by police - its automatically racism

If a BAME person doesnt get a job promotion - its automatically racism

If a BAME person doesn't get a place at their main choice university - its automatically racism

Im not saying racism doesnt go on in society - but Im yet to see proof that the Govt, employers, education establishments are some cabal unite who go out of their way to favour white people.

I agree completely that alot of BAME from poor backgrounds is the result of historic racism and a lack of opportunity that their parents and grandparents faced - but you cant use that as a measurement of how racist UK is as a society these days imo.

yes.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

yes.

How?

Because if you use statistics you are only telling half of a story.

Statistically Morgan Schneiderlin is a great passer of the ball but it means little if its always 2 yard sideways passes.

 

[mill]

How?

Because if you use statistics you are only telling half of a story.

Statistically Morgan Schneiderlin is a great passer of the ball but it means little if its always 2 yard sideways passes.

I’ve explained it to you lots of times. I’ve shown you clear data to show that race is a factor (not the only factor, intersectionality is important).
But you choose to ignore it. You seem to consider racism only at an individual level and I’ve yet to see an evidence that you even understand the term ‘institutional racism’.
I find it interesting that you so easily accept class as a factor (as if directly impacts you perhaps) but can’t consider that structurally (not individually) race may be a factor. I don’t believe race is the only factor but to ignore it entirely is simply ignoring the evidence. There have been so many studies on the subject showing that structural racism exists. Lots of books written about the idea supported by sociologists, economists, anthropologists, experts in demographics.
But because you know a few people who are BAME that have been successful then that to you is evidence enough that it doesn’t exist.
You think EVERYTHING is down to class and nothing else.
Which is interesting as it’s the one privilege that it seems you didn’t have. You might want to think about that. You see class quite clearly because it directly effects you.
think about this, the are loads of examples of working class people who have made it.
I think I’ve done alright for myself too and I come from a working class background.
Does the fact that I’ve done alright for myself mean that class doesn’t exist?

 

[ForeverBlue92]

I’ve explained it to you lots of times. I’ve shown you clear data to show that race is a factor (not the only factor, intersectionality is important).
But you choose to ignore it. You seem to consider racism only at an individual level and I’ve yet to see an evidence that you even understand the term ‘institutional racism’.
I find it interesting that you so easily accept class as a factor (as if directly impacts you perhaps) but can’t consider that structurally (not individually) race may be a factor. I don’t believe race is the only factor but to ignore it entirely is simply ignoring the evidence. There have been so many studies on the subject showing that structural racism exists. Lots of books written about the idea supported by sociologists, economists, anthropologists, experts in demographics.
But because you know a few people who are BAME that have been successful then that to you is evidence enough that it doesn’t exist.
You think EVERYTHING is down to class and nothing else.
Which is interesting as it’s the one privilege that it seems you didn’t have. You might want to think about that. You see class quite clearly because it directly effects you.
think about this, the are loads of examples of working class people who have made it.
I think I’ve done alright for myself too and I come from a working class background.
Does the fact that I’ve done alright for myself mean that class doesn’t exist?

US - Racist system

UK - Class system

The evidence is overwhelming of that.

Do I believe some unscrupulous person in a position in a university or business may be racist and purposely deny BAME applications- of course sadly but that doesn't mean its institutionally racist - as that means from the very top the word is "employ as many whites as possible" that doesnt happen my friend and more often than not its more a case of a minority of racists in positions of power (like the police) but does that make the police force all racist - certainly not.

I do believe the UK may have previously been institutionally racist in decades gone by but I cant see any real evidence of that in todays society.

The problem is the media spout this myth and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy- BAME people hear the myth all the time then whenever they are randomly stopped by police or dont get a job promotion they automatically assume worst case scenario of racism when statistically it most likely isnt that - then the wheel keeps turning.

The media are deceiving us all every day