Bill's staying.

[little curly alan ball]

With "We'd be in the [Poor language removed] if it wasnt for Bill deluded boy." ?

No . Saying it was him .
( You insinuated that no-one had / would . )

 

[Neiler]

The only thing scary in that lot is your failure to grasp (again) that the massive increase in revenue is almost entirley down to tv monies. You should be thanking Rupert Murdoch not Bill Kenwright.

And isn't the debt figure in 2009 accounts now £41M? Much more importantly we're servicing debt to the tune of £4M per year. Most of that is interest on the 2002 arranged securitization. The interest on that loan is payable over 25 years: £37M paid in interest on the £30M secured. That's money that has to be found before the manager gets his cut for players. What did we do with that loan, btw? Put it toward building a new stadium at Kings Dock to generate more revenue? We did **** all with it that's substantial as far as I can see. Another blunder.

It's like your looking at the tip of the iceberg and not realising there's a mass of ice of greater volume under the surface.

You have to laugh mate, the best accusation of stewardship you have for Bill, is that he sells his product collectively to the highest bidder trebleing his revenue! The fiend!

Four million on top of repayments and intrest was a lot based on revenue for 2002 which incidently was 38.3mill on top of wages and thats why it crippled us untill recent seasons. It is also why for a long time the banks would only give us the five mill overdraft facility.

Not to burst your bubble but the fact that our turnover is at close to 80 mill, our payroll just shy of 50 mill, shows in fact what a good decision it was to get the seclarisation deal - without which we proabably would have went belly up. Like i say when you treble your cost base to 80 mill, 4 mill far less brdonsome to be absorbed on the repayments spread out over 25 years. For someone who dimissed the 5 mill on offer annually for Kirkby im surprised you bat an eyelid at 4mill intrest.

Again that comaparrison stands up favourably against the majority of other PL clubs in terms of intrest repayments. Infact i imagine we are the envy of the majority in that regard.

Your pessimistic mate, if you added the value of the players that came through the academy to our accounts, as i know you know homegrown players arent attributed a value in the accounts (note i didnt say sell) we are well and trully in the black. The figures i get from the accounts mate for total debt 37.9mill.



Like i say scaremongering.

 

[Hayee]

Oh yes, I forgot this forum is not mature people. It's for people who still act like teenagers. But at least you can slap people who act mature, isn't that cool?


Well, figures. As I don't think such stuff very mature and by your admission I'm mature it's easy to see my problem here. Of course mature forums don't need rep to boost some people's self-esteem. Me, I find it annoying that you can hand out [Poor language removed] like that to people who you disagree with. I think it was de Saint-Exupéry who said something about wanting to be able to say what you want but getting really annoyed if you try stop someone from speaking his mind - even if that person disagrees with your viewpoint.

You are obviously in the "shut up you moron, I don't like what you say" category. Sad.


I don't club seals, I club reindeer you ignorant British tory.

<yawn>

 

[DENNIS STEVENS]

I can relate to discussing the performance of our Board & the successes & failures as perceived by different viewpoints, but I've never really seen the merit in trying to focus the debate upon Kenwright specifically. Although he is Chairman & the public figurehead, we all know he does not have complete control & is dependant upon the support of the other Board-members. Bill-bashing is a fruitless exercise as it personalises what should be a broader debate & polarises the debate along pro- & anti- lines rather than allowing for any objective discussion about the performance of the Board. However, I also think it's bad form to neg rep individuals who express a contrary opinion - surely that's the whole point of a forum otherwise each thread becomes little more than a petition where everybody echoes the comments of the original post. Unfortunately these threads tend to become the preserve of those who can see no good in Kenwright versus those who can see no failings in him.

 

[Makis]

your very transparent agenda

Yes, well I don't try to hide it, not knowlingly at least unless it's something I haven't thought of. So just to make sure, care to elaborate what this agenda of mine is?

higher intellectual plain.

If this is still is about the strawman thing, I have fought enough of them to bother anymore and that's why I get annoyed when someones uses them. So rather than do that I'll just point them out.

I mean, what's the point in trying to support a claim I never made?

Please explain...

Intelligent design - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[StDomingosGringo]

To ba fair Makis I'm surprised you haven't just let this one drop.

You came into a discussion about Kenwright with two points. The first was an opinion about a transfer 10 years ago which can be disputed on numerous levels and can't be backed up with anything other than speculation. The other was a bit of toffeepleb propaganda you'd swallowed as truth and which you dropped like a stone.

Why would anyone need a strawman in the face of that?

 

[Makis]

You came into a discussion about Kenwright with two points. The first was an opinion about a transfer 10 years ago which can be disputed on numerous levels and can't be backed up with anything other than speculation. The other was a bit of toffeepleb propaganda you'd swallowed as truth and which you dropped like a stone.

The first is based on stuff told by BK in the media, the impression given by Smith etc. Funny how buying Ferguson was a great deal by BK until I listed the facts (massive amounts, very little output)...

As for swallowing something: I got harassed out of People's Forum for not believing the stuff they told about the Rooney saga which was extremely anti-board and anti-BK.

Sad truth is a lot of people believe everything that comes out of the club (often printed by the Echo). Like thinking that idiotic Destination Kirkby plan despite all the PROOF (as in "written down, submitted documents") to the contrary, just because some fat bugger from the club said it's the deal of the century and that's there's no plan B.

Another of my favourites is the "BK has increased the revenue this much" when the facts are it's almost entirely down to increase in TV money. Honestly, did BK do the negotiations for that?

And not only that, but when someone tries to tell about these things, some people STILL refuse to even consider their viewpoint and instead get angry.

Why would anyone need a strawman in the face of that?

Well, I'm happy to argue the points I have made, but not ones I haven't.

Proving some things is nigh impossible. For instance finding the BK inteviews at the time of Ferguson's second arrival could be quite tricky. And making a compilation of how people saw that transfer (that it was perceived to be something BK wanted more than Smith) would probably take weeks to complete.

Besides this is not a big issue on the face of all. Managers make bad signings as well, the main point was to argue that bringing him back was not a good idea. That the money could have been spent better.

As I said in an earlier post, my absolutely greatest gripe isn't even these f**kups, it's the way the club treats the fans. You would think that Kenwright as a fan would do something about this. On the contrary, he is part of it. Even business usually deals better with it's customers, for some reason the People's Club thinks that fans can be treated like [Poor language removed], especially if they have complaints. And of course you can lie to them (like the "facts" about Kirkby).

Expecting more abuse from those who can see no fault in Kenwright...

EDIT: I know a lot of people don't care about off-the-field stuff at all. I'm fine with that. But wouldn't it then be better not to argue about these things with people who do care? Just because you haven't followed that stuff doesn't make you more knowledgeable (and yes, there is a contradiction there) and therefore put you into a position to tell others what they think.

 

[monty]

The first is based on stuff told by BK in the media, the impression given by Smith etc. Funny how buying Ferguson was a great deal by BK until I listed the facts (massive amounts, very little output)...

As for swallowing something: I got harassed out of People's Forum for not believing the stuff they told about the Rooney saga which was extremely anti-board and anti-BK.

Sad truth is a lot of people believe everything that comes out of the club (often printed by the Echo). Like thinking that idiotic Destination Kirkby plan despite all the PROOF (as in "written down, submitted documents") to the contrary, just because some fat bugger from the club said it's the deal of the century and that's there's no plan B.

Another of my favourites is the "BK has increased the revenue this much" when the facts are it's almost entirely down to increase in TV money. Honestly, did BK do the negotiations for that?

And not only that, but when someone tries to tell about these things, some people STILL refuse to even consider their viewpoint and instead get angry.


Well, I'm happy to argue the points I have made, but not ones I haven't.

Proving some things is nigh impossible. For instance finding the BK inteviews at the time of Ferguson's second arrival could be quite tricky. And making a compilation of how people saw that transfer (that it was perceived to be something BK wanted more than Smith) would probably take weeks to complete.

Besides this is not a big issue on the face of all. Managers make bad signings as well, the main point was to argue that bringing him back was not a good idea. That the money could have been spent better.

As I said in an earlier post, my absolutely greatest gripe isn't even these f**kups, it's the way the club treats the fans. You would think that Kenwright as a fan would do something about this. On the contrary, he is part of it. Even business usually deals better with it's customers, for some reason the People's Club thinks that fans can be treated like [Poor language removed], especially if they have complaints. And of course you can lie to them (like the "facts" about Kirkby).

Expecting more abuse from those who can see no fault in Kenwright...

EDIT: I know a lot of people don't care about off-the-field stuff at all. I'm fine with that. But wouldn't it then be better not to argue about these things with people who do care? Just because you haven't followed that stuff doesn't make you more knowledgeable (and yes, there is a contradiction there) and therefore put you into a position to tell others what they think.

As I expected from those who see no good and your diatribe exemplifies A typical propaganda given out by KEIOC and others, 90% (as a guess) has no basis in fact, the remainder is laughable because when proof is asked for you have none.

Could I suggest you go to Davek profile, check the myriad of threads he has started, read the contents of each one in the hope you just may understand that we think on here, this is not Kipper and those with brains will not be led by the nose to believe lies and innuendo.

 

[StDomingosGringo]

This is the point Makis. Anyone who doesn't agree with people who go on the same old anti-Kenwright rants are accused of "seeing no fault" and believing all the club propaganda. It's just not true. What some won't put up with is Davek trudging out the same old cut and paste arguement with blatent untruths in it and everytime he gets called out by someone with the actual facts he disappears off again or acts contrite saying things like "at least we're not Portsmouth eh"

At which point did anyone say BK is responsible for the increase in TV money? Isn't that a strawman arguement there yourself? Revenue from other sources has also increased, check out the financial reports for yourself or as Monty suggested just check another thread started by Davek (don't look for the links in his posts though, actual correct facts arn't his style)

What Neiler and others point out repeatedly in threads like these is that despite that massive increase in TV income many clubs are much, much worse off now than they were and much worse off than we are now. Many of the investors some were so jealous of, even Randy Lerner at Villa, have turned out to be charlatans switching debts about and not really investing at all.

 

[Makis]

As I expected from those who see no good and your diatribe exemplifies A typical propaganda given out by KEIOC and others, 90% (as a guess) has no basis in fact, the remainder is laughable because when proof is asked for you have none.

KEIOC hasn't been around for long enough and it's funny how you have made them the enemy. I have only read their stuff about DK and as far as I can tell, KEIOC itself does not give out other propaganda. Many of it's members obviously do, though. But could you point me to the direction of this "KEIOC" propaganda? I haven't been to their website that many times.

Blaming KEIOC is, of course, just an exercise in shifting blame. About facts: could you pro-Kenwright people do the same? Like not claiming it's BK's achievement that the turnover has increased?

For instance, the FSF fiasco. You just have to connect a few dots to see what was going on:
. Kenwright and Gregg got into a war of words. Gregg was obviously trying to get control (his interview on the Echo where he said he a billionaire backer).
. The increased demands for investment at the time.
. The timing of FSF, shortly after Gregg's attempt of a coup.
. The extreme unprofessionalism shown by FSF's guy at the EGM (or was it AGM?). Never mind the names of the so-called investors...
. The very quick disappearance of FSF after Gregg had been ousted out. We never heard of them after that.

There is also the claim by one person that Ross had told him FSF was just a means to an end, but even if we don't believe this, the rest of the stuff paints a dire picture. Of course you can still think it was a real effort but in that case I doubt any amount of fact would convince you otherwise. Kenwright will never admit it. Anyone looking at the facts can see that there was a boardroom struggle going on at the time and Kenwright used FSF to win it.

Could I suggest you go to Davek profile, check the myriad of threads he has started, read the contents of each one in the hope you just may understand that we think on here, this is not Kipper and those with brains will not be led by the nose to believe lies and innuendo.

I have read most. This is an excellent example of this forum and it's attitudes: http://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/everton-forum/24872-today-10-years-kenwright-regime.html

First few pages after davek's post is about something completely different that had nothing to do with the thread subject. Then BlackToffee enters the fray with his gambit: "If you can't come up with better then you are wrong". And that seems to be, btw, the main pro-Kenwright argument in that thread.

BTW, even though Kipper is very close to the club, they do not attempt to silence dissenters in the same way as GOT. Their main site (not the forum) is so pro-board it's bordering ridiculous (MBE and his stuff, ugh). The relocation forum would have been a very good place but for a few loonies like zcars who do their hardest to destroy any thread. The amount of actual information gleaned from official documents etc. by some people there was amazing. Of course the footballing forum there is a complete joke.

 

[Makis]

This is the point Makis. Anyone who doesn't agree with people who go on the same old anti-Kenwright rants are accused of "seeing no fault" and believing all the club propaganda. It's just not true. What some won't put up with is Davek trudging out the same old cut and paste arguement with blatent untruths in it and everytime he gets called out by someone with the actual facts he disappears off again or acts contrite saying things like "at least we're not Portsmouth eh"

I admit this is getting to the point of blaming each other. I know it's what happens when you get frustrated (I'm guilty of it as well).

My attitude has changed a lot during the DK fiasco. I could understand people believing the mistruths coming out of the club around the time of the ballot, but there are STILL people who believe most of it. It's sometimes hard to tell whether someone sniping in with something is one of these people or not.

At which point did anyone say BK is responsible for the increase in TV money? Isn't that a strawman arguement there yourself?

Revenue from other sources has also increased, check out the financial reports for yourself or as Monty suggested just check another thread started by Davek (don't look for the links in his posts though, actual correct facts arn't his style) [/quote]
I have read the club's financial statements very carefully since around 2002 or 2003.

TV money increase is almost alone responsible for the big leap in revenue. Income from commercial activities a couple of million while TV and prize money has increased ten times more. Some income has also been generated by increasing ticket prices.

What Neiler and others point out repeatedly in threads like these is that despite that massive increase in TV income many clubs are much, much worse off now than they were and much worse off than we are now. Many of the investors some were so jealous of, even Randy Lerner at Villa, have turned out to be charlatans switching debts about and not really investing at all.

And as I told just a few hours ago, financial stuff isn't the biggest thing I have against the current board.

 

[Goat]

Great Blue is Bill.

 

[little curly alan ball]

Being the mature , democrat that I am , I can see both sides of this ,
I would never have gone to Kirkby - FACT - however , to say that we haven't enjoyed relative success under Luvvie #1 , is plain wrong .

L.C.A.B. breathes heavily into brown paper bag - inhaler on stand-by

 

[monty]

BTW, even though Kipper is very close to the club, they do not attempt to silence dissenters in the same way as GOT. Their main site (not the forum) is so pro-board it's bordering ridiculous (MBE and his stuff, ugh). The relocation forum would have been a very good place but for a few loonies like zcars who do their hardest to destroy any thread. The amount of actual information gleaned from official documents etc. by some people there was amazing. Of course the footballing forum there is a complete joke.

KEIOC did nothing but abuse Bill, that same type 118 years ago years ago ended up becoming Reds because we built GP outside the city and they would leave Analfield..............psst, that is what you call history

So anyone who opposes you is a loonie, great basis for any argument, to me this Zcars lid sounds a top bloke. Now as you aren't getting your own way you hit out at this site, who by the sounds of it reject your nonsense like others have. Could I therefore suggest that you open a site, call what you like, and rant away in that place as we are going over and over old ground week in week out................and that isn't any form of democracy its boring. I could offer you an alternative, open a thread here and ask the members are they sick and tired of Bill Kenwright threads and should they be stopped, I think I know what the answer is.

You sarcasticly refer to the amount of information gleaned from official documents by some...........at least those documents are in the public domain, when asking the likes of you to produce evidence you always go off on a tangent as none exists...................incidentally Have a nice day

 

[Makis]

KEIOC did nothing but abuse Bill, that same type 118 years ago years ago ended up becoming Reds because we built GP outside the city and they would leave Analfield..............psst, that is what you call history

Wow, quite some accusations without any facts.

So anyone who opposes you is a loonie, great basis for any argument, to me this Zcars lid sounds a top bloke.

This "top bloke" has been banned from Kipper more times than anyone else.

It's funny how you get into conclusions without knowing anything. Well, that speaks volumes about how much you can be trust.

You are not him by any chance? He does have the same sort of thing every time he re-enters Kipper. He pretends he's not the same bloke and often praises his other alter egos. He also has a similar hate for KEIOC which is based on nothing.

Now as you aren't getting your own way you hit out at this site, who by the sounds of it reject your nonsense like others have.

My way? What is it?

You sarcasticly refer to the amount of information gleaned from official documents by some...........at least those documents are in the public domain, when asking the likes of you to produce evidence you always go off on a tangent as none exists...................incidentally Have a nice day

OK then. You might of course show a good example and show us what sort anti-Kenwright propaganda KEIOC has produced.

Funny how they are still welcome to meet the club officials, though.

EDIT: Nah, you're probably not him looking at number of posts etc. I think the same loon was here at some point as well and the natives didn't appreciate him much.