Ambition.

[catcherintherye]

As I think has been covered, I'm not sure it's ambition under this ownership but application. We wasted a lot of money in the first 2 years, particularly Koeman's 2nd summer and as yet we are still to fully recover from that. Last season saw some improvements. However it's clear there is ambition there, but people have to perform to their roles better.

It is also untrue to say that the likes of City, Liverpool or Spurs just went out and got the managers they did. City went through Hughes, to Mancici, Pellegrini before eventually getting Pep. They were also getting the off the field stuff right in terms of recruitment before Pep arrived. Liverpool kept Hodgson for a time, then Dalglish, Rodgers and then eventually got Klopp. Spurs it was Jol, AVB, Sherwood before settling on Pochetino.

Overall it kind of shows thats it's an inexact science. Who would be our ultimate manager? Pochetino? Tuchell? Thats probably an interesting question in itself. The hope will be, that if Silva leaves he leaves us in a better position than he inherited us from.

 

[Blue Roo]

Fair but I think you have to stack that up against the difference in the transfer markets.
Its a completely diff beast these days.
And a major factor in the issues the club faces. The Red Bulls of this world werent really around then.
We're the club is actually positioned in the broader market makes it difficult to break the shackles.

 

[Dymak]

Mourinho is never coming here, his next job in the PL will be in London, probably Arsenal down the line or 3rd time at Chelsea.

And he's desperately wanting another crack at Real Madrid.

He was living in a hotel for his entire duration at United and his wife refused refused to move North as she loves London living to much.

Plus he said in an interview that was reported heavily after he was linked with the Newcastle job. Jose Mourinho looks unlikely to become the next Newcastle manager after revealing he will not join a club who settle for ‘seventh, eighth or ninth’.

In an interview recorded before Benitez’s departure was announced, Mourinho told The Coaches’ Voice: “The only thing that I know is what I don’t want: I am quite pathological in the sense of I have to play to win.

“Then, if I don’t win, then that’s my problem and the players and the club and the structure but I need a project where the feeling is I play to win.
“If somebody gives me a wonderful 10-year contract and the objective of the team is to stay in the first half of the table and if you finish seventh, eighth or ninth, it’s perfect, then that’s not for me. That’s my nature. “My next (goal) is to fight to win”.

I don't understand the shouts for Mourinho, this is a manager who's never for the long haul, and he wants a big budget at the clubs he's at which is hard with our turnover in the age of FFP and huge commercial deals, he isn't a Klopp or Poch who are happy to build slowly and stamp their authority and philosophy.

Those comments from Mourinho show why people want him so much, and also why he'll never come to us. He's a winner, and won't entertain clubs that would have a party after obtaining a sixth place finish.

 

[Number_25]

I remember us finishing 17th, not even reaching the 40 point mark.

I know where we are as a club.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

Those comments from Mourinho show why people want him so much, and also why he'll never come to us. He's a winner, and won't entertain clubs that would have a party after obtaining a sixth place finish.

Imagine Moshiri uttering "expected losses" to Jose - would get Stone Cold Stunnered over his own office desk

 

[street end]

I agree with the principle but I certainly don't agree that it's just the manager. You say we're being ambitious signing players but we're not really are we? We're spending more money, but we're signing the same type of player we always were, just more of them.

Iwobi and Delph, top 6 players that are no longer wanted, Gomes a player who's lost his way and did pretty well on loan for us without really tearing up any trees, Sidibe a loan for a player that his club no longer wants and was being hawked around the league, Gbamin a player who may well turn out to be very good but wasn't exactly coveted, and Lossl a free transfer from a relegated club. All of those are in the same bracket that we were signing 10 years ago. Kean is the only signing we made this summer that hints at ambition, and that's a long term signing rather than one supposed to catapult us into the elite. We didn't sign or replace Zouma, and lost Gana who was arguably our best/most important player. You'd be very hard pressed to say that this years squad is better than last years, and that squad came 8th. I don't see where the ambition is there.

Silva is a midtable manager managing midtable players, that's why we're midtable.

Just to point out we signed Gana Gueye from a relegated club, that turned out ok.

 

[street end]

Yeah United went for top tier players and got jogged on for every single 1.

You mean Premier League winner Delph and World cup winner Sidibe?

The players arent the problem, the tactics and the manager are.

Well said.

 

[Lanolin]

Just to point out we signed Gana Gueye from a relegated club, that turned out ok.

That’s not really relevant though is it? I’m not trying to suggest the players are all rubbish, just that they’re not hugely ambitious signings. We haven’t signed a single player in the last 3-4 years that would have other teams saying ‘how have Everton got him?’. There has been no indication that we’re a club in a hurry to make a splash.

I’m not kicking off here by the way, just saying how I see it.

 

[street end]

That’s not really relevant though is it? I’m not trying to suggest the players are all rubbish, just that they’re not hugely ambitious signings. We haven’t signed a single player in the last 3-4 years that would have other teams saying ‘how have Everton got him?’. There has been no indication that we’re a club in a hurry to make a splash.

I’m not kicking off here by the way, just saying how I see it.

Yeah I understand your point. I would say that there was a lot of European clubs after Bernard, so we can’t dismiss all the signings, Richarlison signing was pulled from nowhere, maybe other clubs would have been after him if it was a prolonged transfer but I seem to remember it was done very quickly. Pickford was also signed from a relegated club.... I’m just saying that ambition doesn’t mean because you sign players that we suppose other clubs don’t want that we are lacking ambition. I think we can all agree that Digne has been outstanding, Gomes doing well and Mina improving with a run of games... Utd also wanted Mina if the papers are to be believed.

 

[Lanolin]

Yeah I understand your point. I would say that there was a lot of European clubs after Bernard, so we can’t dismiss all the signings, Richarlison signing was pulled from nowhere, maybe other clubs would have been after him if it was a prolonged transfer but I seem to remember it was done very quickly. Pickford was also signed from a relegated club.... I’m just saying that ambition doesn’t mean because you sign players that we suppose other clubs don’t want that we are lacking ambition.

I don’t know why you’re specifically talking about signing players from relegated clubs? I’m not suggesting that’s a bad thing or anything, my point was that we haven’t really moved up a level with our signings from a few years ago. We’re still signing the same top 6 cast offs and good players from lesser teams that we were 10 years ago. You can put a good side together that way, nobody’s arguing otherwise, but it’s not the type of thing that makes you say ‘oh Everton look like they’re an ambitious club’ which, as far as I can see, is what the conversation is about.

 

[street end]

I don’t know why you’re specifically talking about signing players from relegated clubs? I’m not suggesting that’s a bad thing or anything, my point was that we haven’t really moved up a level with our signings from a few years ago. We’re still signing the same top 6 cast offs and good players from lesser teams that we were 10 years ago. You can put a good side together that way, nobody’s arguing otherwise, but it’s not the type of thing that makes you say ‘oh Everton look like they’re an ambitious club’ which, as far as I can see, is what the conversation is about.

I was picking up on your theme of us signing players that are not being wanted by other clubs, this usually goes hand in hand with players from clubs that have been relegated, in particular when we signed Pickford for 30M, we were laughed at for signing such a player because it must have been his fault they got relegated. Now England’s number 1 and probably worth double what we paid for him.

 

[Lanolin]

I was picking up on your theme of us signing players that are not being wanted by other clubs, this usually goes hand in hand with players from clubs that have been relegated, in particular when we signed Pickford for 30M, we were laughed at for signing such a player because it must have been his fault they got relegated. Now England’s number 1 and probably worth double what we paid for him.

No you’re misunderstanding me. I’m certainly not suggesting other clubs don’t want any of the players we sign, of course they do.

Pickford is actually a very odd example to use as he was arguably the one who looked most ambitious to outsiders. People may have thought we overpaid, but that in itself is a sign of ambition. If anything there haven’t been enough signings like that.

As I’ve said, there’s nothing to say you can’t be successful doing it how we are, just that it isn’t overtly ambitious, which is what the OP was suggesting.

 

[Rudolf Hucker]

We had a manager capable of taking us to bigger things when Moshiri came in. He’d performed miracles giving us our highest EPL points total & 2 semi finals, despite having a threadbare ageing squad. The bungling idiot sacked him without thought of who would come in. He then pursued a dull underachieving big name (as a player, not as a manager) who clearly didn’t want the job, but reluctantly agreed after we paid way over the odds & got bummed by his club too, came & proceeded to put us back at least 5 years by spending insane amounts on journeymen at 3-5 times their market value & putting us in such a perilous position, we were forced to press the panic button & go for a greedy spiv who could smell the gravy & promptly held us over the barrel for a 2 year contract..........and breath.

Not having learned from this £100M+ balls up, we then put all our eggs in the basket of an unproven & somewhat stained (given the way he downed tools following our overtures) manager, who now appears to be completely out of his depth...


I don’t think the issue here is a lack of ambition. It’s a lack of ability. Bill Kenwright might be capable of putting a show on, but his attempts in the football arena are pure panto. Who else could find a Billionaire with the business acumen of Forest Gump? That shouldn’t really be possible, but my guess is Moshiri isn’t a businessman, he’s merely an accountant. The accountant to a very rich man in Usmanov, a very lucrative gig.


Wasn’t it Rommel who said “Lions led by Donkeys”?



...I say lions, we’ve got a few fannies in the squad, we’re certainly led by Donkeys.

 

[street end]

We had a manager capable of taking us to bigger things when Moshiri came in. He’d performed miracles giving us our highest EPL points total & 2 semi finals, despite having a threadbare ageing squad. The bungling idiot sacked him without thought of who would come in. He then pursued a dull underachieving big name (as a player, not as a manager) who clearly didn’t want the job, but reluctantly agreed after we paid way over the odds & got bummed by his club too, came & proceeded to put us back at least 5 years by spending insane amounts on journeymen at 3-5 times their market value & putting us in such a perilous position, we were forced to press the panic button & go for a greedy spiv who could smell the gravy & promptly held us over the barrel for a 2 year contract..........and breath.

Not having learned from this £100M+ balls up, we then put all our eggs in the basket of an unproven & somewhat stained (given the way he downed tools following our overtures) manager, who now appears to be completely out of his depth...


I don’t think the issue here is a lack of ambition. It’s a lack of ability. Bill Kenwright might be capable of putting a show on, but his attempts in the football arena are pure panto. Who else could find a Billionaire with the business acumen of Forest Gump? That shouldn’t really be possible, but my guess is Moshiri isn’t a businessman, he’s merely an accountant. The accountant to a very rich man in Usmanov, a very lucrative gig.


Wasn’t it Rommel who said “Lions led by Donkeys”?



...I say lions, we’ve got a few fannies in the squad, we’re certainly led by Donkeys.

When he sacked Martinez had we won 1 in 10? And before that had lost a previous 7? His time was up because he couldn’t change his methods.

 

[street end]

No you’re misunderstanding me. I’m certainly not suggesting other clubs don’t want any of the players we sign, of course they do.

Pickford is actually a very odd example to use as he was arguably the one who looked most ambitious to outsiders. People may have thought we overpaid, but that in itself is a sign of ambition. If anything there haven’t been enough signings like that.

As I’ve said, there’s nothing to say you can’t be successful doing it how we are, just that it isn’t overtly ambitious, which is what the OP was suggesting.

I see, fair point.