Current Affairs Afghanistan

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Tubey said:
I strictly blame him for the withdrawal. It's all on him what's happening right now in August 2021.

Biden had it within his gift to say no, Trump's plan isn't happening, we're doing this instead. Whether it'd be "well received" by the Taliban means the square sum of sod all, because if we evacuated in good time with good processes then we avoid the disaster we have now. We could have identified all at risk, got them out, and then merrily waved goodbye to the Taliban as the overwhelmed the Afghan army if they decided not to fight.

No, it's all on Biden because he had it within his power to not do what we're seeing right now, and refused to do it. 100% him. Not for partisan reasons, but because it's 100% his call to do this. Even now, with massive pressure from all allies, he's refusing to budge - that's not Trump.
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A load of "could have" wishful thinking absent any sort of specific. It's the reaction of emotion. Lookie there, love! What we see on the teevee is horrible!! Something MUST have been done differently to avoid!!
 
tsubaki said:
From "complete nonsense" to "there was nothing the Taliban could have done about it".

The Taliban could have done something about it - they could have started killing US, UK and NATO troops again, just as they did when the US, UK and NATO had far more strength in country than they did when Biden took over.

By all means criticize Biden for the nature of the withdrawal, but to say there would have been no consequences for delaying / rewriting / cancelling that deal Trump agreed to is an absolute lie. The consequences would have come home in boxes; they still might if our idiotic leadership keeps trying to pretend August 31st isnt a deadline in every sense of the word.
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31 August is only a deadline solely because of Joe Biden. That's precisely my point.

Arguing the Taliban would have done anything of note if Biden delayed when he came into office is ridiculous. In the whole 'war' they've killed 2,400 US armed forces personnel - they've hid in the hills and 'fought' a guerilla war. The consequences would have been next to nothing compared to the consequences of what Biden has actually done.
 
BlueTX said:
A load of "could have" wishful thinking absent any sort of specific. It's the reaction of emotion. Lookie there, love! What we see on the teevee is horrible!! Something MUST have been done differently to avoid!!
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No, it's a reaction of logic. It's saying the guy who made a bad decision is responsible for the bad decision. It's on him. I detest Trump, I was happy Biden won, but come on, this has been horrific stuff from Biden.
 
The decision to leave, by both Trump and Biden was probably a mistake, but history will judge on that. The manner of withdrawal was wholly a matter for Biden and his team. They completely cocked it up. There is no defence for this, and I’m disappointed that some on here are trying to do so tbh…Biden is the President and had more than enough time to withdraw how he saw fit….
 
Tubey said:
No, it's a reaction of logic. It's saying the guy who made a bad decision is responsible for the bad decision. It's on him. I detest Trump, I was happy Biden won, but come on, this has been horrific stuff from Biden.
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No, I won't come on that this is a reaction of logic or any other sort of reason. It's simplistic and emotional, ignoring facts and history to come to a conclusion. I try not to do that.

Biden's not free from any sort or type of blame but, as repeatedly stated, strictly blaming him is just wrong.
 
BlueTX said:
No, I won't come on that this is a reaction of logic or any other sort of reason. It's simplistic and emotional, ignoring facts and history to come to a conclusion. I try not to do that.

Biden's not free from any sort or type of blame but, as repeatedly stated, strictly blaming him is just wrong.
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Who else would you blame for the withdrawal ?….
 
peteblue said:
Who else would you blame for the withdrawal ?….
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Trump's decision to set expections with Taliban. Trump's decision to release Taliban fighters. Trump's decision to draw down 80% of troop levels. Trump's decision not to process SIVs.

His actions are in part responsible for this outcome. Biden's decision to keep the promise of withdrawal makes him responsible, as well.

No one that I recall who has responded to you or Tubey, that I am aware of, has indicated differently.

AFAIK, it's the two of you and maybe another one or two who are utterly insistent this is all on Biden.

(Done for now, fellas. I prefer to watch the match.)
 
Tubey said:
The ex-President apparently, despite laughing at Trump blaming Obama for everything.

It's ridiculous partisanship.
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If the future deems that to withdraw was the correct decision, then both Trump and Biden will no doubt share the applause. But to attempt to absolve Biden and his team for the withdrawal is indeed partisanship of the highest order….
 
Tubey said:
31 August is only a deadline solely because of Joe Biden. That's precisely my point.

Arguing the Taliban would have done anything of note if Biden delayed when he came into office is ridiculous. In the whole 'war' they've killed 2,400 US armed forces personnel - they've hid in the hills and 'fought' a guerilla war. The consequences would have been next to nothing compared to the consequences of what Biden has actually done.
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I know its your point, its one that is wrong.

The chaos of the evacuation is down to one thing - the collapse of the former Afghan government. Without that collapse, there would have been no panicked evacuation, no people falling off planes and none of the rest of the scenes that have shocked a largely ignorant media and public. That collapse couldn't have been predicted when Biden took office - even the CIA said it was one of many possible scenarios that were put out there - and of course Biden didn't pencil in 31st August as the original withdrawal date.

So for any backsliding, before there was any obvious reason to backslide, would have resulted in the other side - you know, the Taliban who in their guerilla war have killed 2400 service members from the most powerful nation on earth (and 1100 NATO troops, and 66000 Afghan military and cops) - being much more likely to react. It would have cost the lives of US, UK and NATO service members - probably more than a few of them, given the reduced numbers of troops in the country at the time.
 
roydo said:
I am a simple sole. With no deep understanding of Afghan politics or tribal stuff.

But not leaving this at POTUS door is sommet I cant get. He made the decision.
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I don't think anyone is letting Biden off the hook with the shambolic nature of the withdrawal but all I'm saying is that Trump put him in a terrible position. Pompeo basically conceded to the taliban. They then drew down thousands of troops and put no actual plan in place for the final withdrawal.
In order for biden to safely leave, he would have had to increase troop numbers, something that the Taliban would have resisted militarily. So he was left in the position of

A) increasing troops to facilitate a safe withdrawal and risking an escalation of the war
B) Extend the withdrawal deadline and put the lives of thousands of NATO and Afghani troops at risk
C) Ignoring Trumps Taliban agreement and continuing the war.
D) Rip off the bandaid and withdraw quickly before the deadline and hope the international community help with the evacuation process.

I'm really not sure what other options he had.
 
tsubaki said:
I know its your point, its one that is wrong.

The chaos of the evacuation is down to one thing - the collapse of the former Afghan government. Without that collapse, there would have been no panicked evacuation, no people falling off planes and none of the rest of the scenes that have shocked a largely ignorant media and public. That collapse couldn't have been predicted when Biden took office - even the CIA said it was one of many possible scenarios that were put out there - and of course Biden didn't pencil in 31st August as the original withdrawal date.

So for any backsliding, before there was any obvious reason to backslide, would have resulted in the other side - you know, the Taliban who in their guerilla war have killed 2400 service members from the most powerful nation on earth (and 1100 NATO troops, and 66000 Afghan military and cops) - being much more likely to react. It would have cost the lives of US, UK and NATO service members - probably more than a few of them, given the reduced numbers of troops in the country at the time.
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... which was caused by an arbitrary withdrawal date set by Joe Biden.

That's the actual "one thing" this is down to.
 
Ruairi77 said:
I don't think anyone is letting Biden off the hook with the shambolic nature of the withdrawal but all I'm saying is that Trump put him in a terrible position. Pompeo basically conceded to the taliban. They then drew down thousands of troops and put no actual plan in place for the final withdrawal.
In order for biden to safely leave, he would have had to increase troop numbers, something that the Taliban would have resisted militarily. So he was left in the position of

A) increasing troops to facilitate a safe withdrawal and risking an escalation of the war
B) Extend the withdrawal deadline and put the lives of thousands of NATO and Afghani troops at risk
C) Ignoring Trumps Taliban agreement and continuing the war.
D) Rip off the bandaid and withdraw quickly before the deadline and hope the international community help with the evacuation process.

I'm really not sure what other options he had.
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Option A. Clearly.

And what escalation? It's been eight years since the Taliban killed over 100 US troops in a calendar year. This wasn't the Nazis penning the Allies in at Dunkirk.
 
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