6 + 2 Point Deductions

[Saint Domingo]

How can you compete if you go bankrupt?

They seemed to have the answer when Liverpool went bankrupt. Just force a sale to someone else.

Also we’re in a slightly unusual situation, there’s no cash in the business because we tried to build a stadium and there was a war in Ukraine that meant our primary sponsor withdrew all support. These things would still be a massive problem for us even if we’d spent 20 mill less in an accounting period.

Most normal teams not building a stadium are not going bust, the handful of teams that have actually fully disappeared off the map for going bust is minsicule and some of those have occurred very recently after financial regs have been introduced.

If you want every club in the league to turn into a feeder club for the top teams with pleasing spreadsheets then be my guest. I’d prefer the dream that any team could win the league if it assembled the right manager and players.

 

[Moderatelywarmwater]

They seemed to have the answer when Liverpool went bankrupt. Just force a sale to someone else.

Also we’re in a slightly unusual situation, there’s no cash in the business because we tried to build a stadium and there was a war in Ukraine that meant our primary sponsor withdrew all support. These things would still be a massive problem for us even if we’d spent 20 mill less in an accounting period.

Most normal teams not building a stadium are not going bust, the handful of teams that have actually fully disappeared off the map for going bust is minsicule and some of those have occurred very recently after financial regs have been introduced.

If you want every club in the league to turn into a feeder club for the top teams with pleasing spreadsheets then be my guest. I’d prefer the dream that any team could win the league if it assembled the right manager and players.

But I’m not so much taking about us. We are odd.
But forest, Villa?
They’ve spent huge amounts they shouldn’t have and this puts the future of clubs at risk.
Personally I’d make the threshold far lower but perhaps have more exceptions

 

[Saint Domingo]

But I’m not so much taking about us. We are odd.
But forest, Villa?
They’ve spent huge amounts they shouldn’t have and this puts the future of clubs at risk.
Personally I’d make the threshold far lower but perhaps have more exceptions

Why are Villa at risk? They literally have owners who will keep funding them. If they’re allowed to continue to spend and abck Emery they could establish themselves in the CL spots and start to increase revenue and sponsorship. They’d also then be able to start trading top playing assets so they wouldn’t be as reliant on owner investment.

The only reason they won’t be able to is this arbitrary regulation that has nothing to do with Villa’s ability as a going concern. It’s everything to do with stopping Villa permanently displacing a United or Liverpool from accessing that revenue.

 

[Moderatelywarmwater]

Why are Villa at risk? They literally have owners who will keep funding them. If they’re allowed to continue to spend and abck Emery they could establish themselves in the CL spots and start to increase revenue and sponsorship. They’d also then be able to start trading top playing assets so they wouldn’t be as reliant on owner investment.

The only reason they won’t be able to is this arbitrary regulation that has nothing to do with Villa’s ability as a going concern. It’s everything to do with stopping Villa permanently displacing a United or Liverpool from accessing that revenue.

Your words were these
“Alternative take, have a competition where all 20 teams have the same opportunity to compete”

The same opportunity to compete. And I agree with you.
But how in anyway is what you are suggesting allowing teams the same opportunity to compete? It isn’t.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Portsmouth still here, Leeds still here, Rangers still here, Liverpool still here (even though they should have been in administration), Derby County still here, Coventry still here. Reading still here

The actual number of clubs that have been completely liquidated because of financial problems is negligible. Some have got into difficulties and have been knocked down the leagues, or had issues with their stadium, but how many football clubs have actually been wound up?

Most of them can wash their face with guaranteed matchday income and a controllable cost base of the players wages that you can always reduce down to almost nothing at the lower levels. The prospect of a financial institution turning down guaranteed future revenue in exchange for calling the bailiffs in to steam roller a stadium and wind a club up is highly unlikely.

For decades sustainability had looked after itself. Teams flew too close to the sun and had to sell players to rebalance. Now we’re seeing teams that don’t have to take that medicine having it forced upon them, not in the name of sustainability but in the name of protecting six elite clubs.

 

[Tony’s Carp]

Why are Villa at risk? They literally have owners who will keep funding them. If they’re allowed to continue to spend and abck Emery they could establish themselves in the CL spots and start to increase revenue and sponsorship. They’d also then be able to start trading top playing assets so they wouldn’t be as reliant on owner investment.

The only reason they won’t be able to is this arbitrary regulation that has nothing to do with Villa’s ability as a going concern. It’s everything to do with stopping Villa permanently displacing a United or Liverpool from accessing that revenue.

This was true of us also, until he suddenly couldn't. And now we're living off payday loans to keep the administrators at bay. Things change.

It's not without flaws but by keeping spending vaguely in line with revenue it tries to prevent clubs being put out of business by sudden swings of misfortune. And I'd argue in our case it probably has.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Your words were these
“Alternative take, have a competition where all 20 teams have the same opportunity to compete”

The same opportunity to compete. And I agree with you.
But how in anyway is what you are suggesting allowing teams the same opportunity to compete? It isn’t.

If the prem had no P&S rules you’d see the billionaire backers of all the other clubs pouring money in. They all want to win. No billionaire is going to buy Luton though knowing full well he can’t spend his or her money even if they want to.

Clubs would compete the same way City and Chelsea did. The same way United and Liverpool did back in the day, they’d buy the best players and managers and win everything. Newcastle, Villa, and Everton (pre Usmanov leaving) would have just kept on investing, so would Palace and even Bournemouth by the sound of it.

That’s the exact thing the elite don’t want to happen though and they’ve expertly now crafted this myth that somehow what Chelsea and City did was bad. They did exactly what Liverpool United and Arsenal did but just decades later.

 

[Saint Domingo]

This was true of us also, until he suddenly couldn't. And now we're living off payday loans to keep the administrators at bay. Things change.

It's not without flaws but by keeping spending vaguely in line with revenue it tries to prevent clubs being put out of business by sudden swings of misfortune. And I'd argue in our case it probably has.

If we take this kind though then every single club in the league is screwed. If the Glazers left United they’d go under, if the Saudis left Newcastle, if Abu Dhabi left City. Every club in the world would fold under that stress test.

 

[Moderatelywarmwater]

Portsmouth still here, Leeds still here, Rangers still here, Liverpool still here (even though they should have been in administration), Derby County still here, Coventry still here. Reading still here

The actual number of clubs that have been completely liquidated because of financial problems is negligible. Some have got into difficulties and have been knocked down the leagues, or had issues with their stadium, but how many football clubs have actually been wound up?

Most of them can wash their face with guaranteed matchday income and a controllable cost base of the players wages that you can always reduce down to almost nothing at the lower levels. The prospect of a financial institution turning down guaranteed future revenue in exchange for calling the bailiffs in to steam roller a stadium and wind a club up is highly unlikely.

For decades sustainability had looked after itself. Teams flew too close to the sun and had to sell players to rebalance. Now we’re seeing teams that don’t have to take that medicine having it forced upon them, not in the name of sustainability but in the name of protecting six elite clubs.

So you don’t believe all clubs should have the same opportunity to compete.
Why didn’t you just say that.

 

[mikel_88]

With the takeover taking 6 months now and more could this be put into any new psr. With the club being unable to move on

 

[Saint Domingo]

So you don’t believe all clubs should have the same opportunity to compete.
Why didn’t you just say that.

Oh we could go more drastic and have salary caps, draft picks, revenue sharing etc. I’d be even more in favour of that, but as that is unlikely to ever happen I’ll take the previous capitalist model of the richest club wins, at least that used to rotate a bit and there’s no blocker to any team
becoming that club.

To be clear though I just oppose the model which is designed to keep the elite where they are and everyone else unable to break in. Why any fan outside of the top 6 would be in support of that is beyond me.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

Oh we could go more drastic and have salary caps, draft picks, revenue sharing etc. I’d be even more in favour of that, but as that is unlikely to ever happen I’ll take the previous capitalist model of the richest club wins, at least that used to rotate a bit and there’s no blocker to any team
becoming that club.

To be clear though I just oppose the model which is designed to keep the elite where they are and everyone else unable to break in. Why any fan outside of the top 6 would be in support of that is beyond me.

Unfortunately fans are too tribal in nature to rally together for change. Imagine if the fan groups of the other 14 clubs rallied together and did synchronised protests/demonstrations across fixtures towards the current rules in place.

Instead fans just call each other cheats and wish relegation on one another for internet "bantz".

Unfortunately the 14 other clubs get when they deserve through being complicit in letting 6 teams "take the mick".

 

[Neiler]

Ha ha City didn't even make the list, i know its an oversight, but not wholly inaccurate either.

 

[Moderatelywarmwater]

Oh we could go more drastic and have salary caps, draft picks, revenue sharing etc. I’d be even more in favour of that, but as that is unlikely to ever happen I’ll take the previous capitalist model of the richest club wins, at least that used to rotate a bit and there’s no blocker to any team
becoming that club.

To be clear though I just oppose the model which is designed to keep the elite where they are and everyone else unable to break in. Why any fan outside of the top 6 would be in support of that is beyond me.

I’m fully against this. Because, if Chelsea and city hadn’t been allowed to cheat the system, we’d have been in the champions league many more times, and would have grown our revenue as a result.
It’s literally stuffed us.

 

[Tony’s Carp]

Ha ha City didn't even make the list, i know its an oversight, but not wholly inaccurate either.

City posted an 80m profit for 22/23, they are absolutely fine. It's the years that got them to where they are now that are the issue.