Current Affairs 2024 POTUS race

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So teaching kids to love their country and religion (which is in most schools in the UK at primary level) is a bad thing? I am not religious personally but my daughter goes to a religious school and it doesn't phase me as a parent.
Religion has no place in public education. It’s not up to the government and school board to decide which religion people have to learn and believe in. That a family/parental decision all the way. You want that for your child, by all means send them to a religious affiliated private school.
 
As said prayer in a faith school is fine but when the population is made up of a host of religions it seems a bit mad to force one particular one onto the masses .

What’s your religion mate ? Assuming it’s Christian would you be happy with your children being told to recite the Koran five times a day or presumably have their school diet imposed on them ? I went to a faith school but nobody made me go , well other than my parents .

Also I’m no expert but it’s expressly forbidden by the constitution isn’t it ? which when it comes to the second amendment is carved in stone but maybe it’s more flexible than they’ve let on .
To be honest I have no religion personally but I know my daughter has been taught about different religions , heavy in the Christian side but they do special celebrations for other faiths as well. I know America wouldn't adopt the same sort of principle but in an ideal world they would.

To some extent it is about national identity and that is from an outside perspective quite important in America, to be proud of where you are from, it isn't really the same this side of the water to the same level. We are Scouse but it's not really our identity but even people from states seem to be be proud of that.

I think religion in the overall spectrum is a little bit misleading in the modern age in this country at least. Within the next 30 plus years I could see Islam being the main faith within the UK. Partly to do with immigration but also that religion in western generations is dying out whereas islam is still strongly followed. America does have a heavy Christian following still (geographically?) so I can understand the importance of that side being insistent of keeping that going.
 
Religion has no place in public education. It’s not up to the government and school board to decide which religion people have to learn and believe in. That a family/parental decision all the way. You want that for your child, by all means send them to a religious affiliated private school.
Religion has been a sort of education for generations, for all of time since education became a thing. I agree parental choice should be a part of that though, but overall religion has been fundamentally part of everyone's education. Moving it out of schools is a fairly new practice, my son's old school, one of the cookie cutter schools in Liverpool were not religious.

Parental choice should be a a part of education but there is several hot topics other than religion that people would have opposing views on within education that I am sure have been discussed on the site before!
 
Religion has been a sort of education for generations, for all of time since education became a thing. I agree parental choice should be a part of that though, but overall religion has been fundamentally part of everyone's education. Moving it out of schools is a fairly new practice, my son's old school, one of the cookie cutter schools in Liverpool were not religious.

Parental choice should be a a part of education but there is several hot topics other than religion that people would have opposing views on within education that I am sure have been discussed on the site before!
So which religions should get taught then? Does the Hindu child have to learn Catholicism and not the other way around? Do you teach them all, in which case parents will also be unhappy?

I’m with you on this point. School should be used to teach math, science, literature, etc. it shouldn’t be forcing opinionated topics whether religious or otherwise.
 
Religion has been a sort of education for generations, for all of time since education became a thing. I agree parental choice should be a part of that though, but overall religion has been fundamentally part of everyone's education. Moving it out of schools is a fairly new practice, my son's old school, one of the cookie cutter schools in Liverpool were not religious.

Parental choice should be a a part of education but there is several hot topics other than religion that people would have opposing views on within education that I am sure have been discussed on the site before!
Different in the US. Separation of church and state.

We still have clerics in the upper legislative house in our country, a distinction I think we share only with Iran.

I think it's important to learn about all major religions, they have been an important part of shaping the world around us.

Religious indoctrination, which is something else altogether, has no place in schools, and that's what Shitler seems to be proposing.
 
Just taking the bolded points - teaching the constitution is going to point out that the 2nd bit, mandatory school prayer, is unconstitutional so that might be a bit of an issue.
'we will support bringing back prayers to our schools.'
He doesn't say a thing about mandatory school prayers.
In the cases Engel v. Vitale (1962) and Abington School District v. Schempp (1963), the United States Supreme Court ruled that government mandated school prayer is unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. However voluntary prayer is not unconstitutional.

Basically I read it as, we will promote it as a good thing to do, make it a point and score points with those for who it matters, but in truth will not have a real world effect.

Had mandatory school prayers from the age of 5-16 myself, meant absolutely nothing besides a hugely boring Monday morning assembly and tedious RE class three times per week.

Certainly don't think even mandated prayers would constitute an aggregious assault on free speech though. Anyone who does never went to a religious school, or is frankly just looki g fir sn excuse.

Oh my god trump is making children pray, he's the antichrist
 
'we will support bringing back prayers to our schools.'
He doesn't say a thing about mandatory school prayers.


Basically I read it as, we will promote it as a good thing to do, make it a point and score points with those for who it matters, but in truth will not have a real world effect.

Had mandatory school prayers from the age of 5-16 myself, meant absolutely nothing besides a hugely boring Monday morning assembly and tedious RE class three times per week.

Certainly don't think even mandated prayers would constitute an aggregious assault on free speech though. Anyone who does never went to a religious school, or is frankly just looki g fir sn excuse.

Oh my god trump is making children pray, he's the antichrist
But non mandatory school prayers at a public school are already allowed, it was even clarified in 2023 by Biden.
And if your parents want you to go to a religious school and get regular prayers based on that religion is also allowed.

Many, many legal rulings have completely disagreed with you on the bolded bit.

Just because it wasn’t an issue for you to be forced to pray does not mean it wouldn’t be an issue for others here in the US which has a vast array of different religions (and many who don’t have any reliogion) and was founded on a basis of “freedom of religion”.
 
The problem with this analysis is that we’ve got examples in the US where these things have been done at a state level, and the results are appalling.

States are not going to pay for what would be required to set it (vocational education especially) up, nor would they allow teachers to have that kind of input into developing workers like plumbers, mechanics, nurses, cops and so on. This will be seen as socialism, taking opportunity away from private education (where the students pay for the training).

What you’ll also no doubt find is that the narrow requirements of the plan will be only able to be met by a narrow band of providers, so any market benefits will be lost as well and the whole thing will see even more waste than there is now. In a decade you’ll end up with demoralized and ill-educated people who are way behind their contemporaries in Europe, Asia and elsewhere, and a smaller number of people in better run states who go on to make hay against those others.

As usual with you mate you make a solid counter argument. It's appreciated in spades btw.

There's a huge debate about which is better, centralised power or dispersed power. Central government or state.

Which is better, which is worse, etc. I guess a lot depends on who they government is and which state you live within.

I'm not sure how focusing on core subjects with an additional focus on vocational professions will make the USA fall way behind other rising countries though.

Because that's exactly what the countries like China etc are doing themselves.

Do a blind straw poll of twenty Chinese graduates and twenty western ones, look at what subjects they studied and look at what professions they are now in.

Pretty sure you'd see a stark difference between the two, you won't be seeing many degrees that aren't practical and put to use on the Chinese side, I'd doubt you'd have more than 10% om the western side worming in a s field that the degree pertained too.

I also doubt you'd have many Chinese graduates in the fields of 'recreation and leisure studies', 'LGBTQ+ studies' (a San Diego state major btw), Equity studies
I’m all for teaching kids the history of this country. The trouble is that even that is highly politicized. We’re nearly 160 years on from the end of our Civil War and we can’t even come to a clear consensus on who the bad guys were. I don’t have any kids so I can’t really speak to how it’s being taught now, but when I was in HS in the late 90’s I can assure you that a HEAVILY whitewashed version of the history was being taught that legitimized the cause of the Confederacy in a way that it ABOLUTELY should not have.

Even more than history, we need to be educating young people in this country about Civics. How the government works, and the importance of participating in it, namely through showing up to vote. One of my biggest takeaways from the past ten years or so is that the average knowledge level in that area is appalling.

As to prayer in schools, he’s not talking about Catholic schools. Privately funded schools who are affiliated with a religious organization already have prayer in them and always have. If you don’t like the prayer, you’re free to not pay the tuition to send your kids to a school like that. He’s talking about re-instituting prayer in taxpayer funded public schools, which anyone with the aforementioned knowledge of Civics would know is a blatant violation of the 1st Amendment. Freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion.
Great post

and a lot of interesting points

For me, for the US - bury my heart at wounded knee should be a mandated read for example
The full causes for the civil war should be taught, not slavery was the reason, but slavery was a major factor and the other reasons also - a full understanding, but I e most history teachers these days probably would struggle to teach sadly.
the religion thing, I didn't know in the US catholic schools were feeling paying ones, in the UK they aren't , I went to one for example - but if schools have freedom of choice and as he stated he wants freedom for parents to move schools, then imo that is a good thing - unless a state mandates ALL schools MUST proscribe which is a worry I'll admit.

Absolutely agree on your point about civics and civic responsibility btw, it should be a fundamental thought for every kid growing up
 
But non mandatory school prayers at a public school are already allowed, it was even clarified in 2023 by Biden.
And if your parents want you to go to a religious school and get regular prayers based on that religion is also allowed.

Many, many legal rulings have completely disagreed with you on the bolded bit.

Just because it wasn’t an issue for you to be forced to pray does not mean it wouldn’t be an issue for others here in the US which has a vast array of different religions (and many who don’t have any reliogion) and was founded on a basis of “freedom of religion”.

Again a great counter post LL, as I just said to another poster catholic schools in the UK aren't fee paying, but a question, in the USA are they always fee paying schools I honestly don't know .. if so would that restrict those who want from going to them on economic grounds? If they are free then yeah it removes a huge thing about it

But should public schools be able to set themselves up with a religious prayer system, honestly can't say, I don't think this is a smoking gun to go after trump on though, there's one type for that the school stuff for me is very sensible, in principle, I'm practise, well they'd different ofc .

Thanks again for genuinely engaging in good faith though
 
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