Current Affairs 2024 POTUS race

[Toffeepot]

Well his hands are at least clean.

And I think the way the Palestinian cause was treated last week in Chicago was nothing short of a disgrace.

I want the Democratic ticket to win, but they dont get a blank cheque, which I think they do from some people.

Where Israel is concerned every administration supports them unfortunately, even when they commit war crimes.
I doubt that is going to change but there is at least some push back from the Democrats when it comes to atrocities and allowing aid through. Is it enough? Nowhere near it, but they have a considerably better approach to Israel where Palestinian rights are concerned than the Republicans, and in particular this current MAGA manifestation.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

Where Israel is concerned every administration supports them unfortunately, even when they commit war crimes.
I doubt that is going to change but there is at least some push back from the Democrats when it comes to atrocities and allowing aid through. Is it enough? Nowhere near it, but they have a considerably better approach to Israel where Palestinian rights are concerned than the Republicans, and in particular this current MAGA manifestation.

Oh god man, he hadn't harped on Gaza for days and now you re-opened it for comment.

Insufferable rantings incoming

 

[davek]

Where Israel is concerned every administration supports them unfortunately, even when they commit war crimes.
I doubt that is going to change but there is at least some push back from the Democrats when it comes to atrocities and allowing aid through. Is it enough? Nowhere near it, but they have a considerably better approach to Israel where Palestinian rights are concerned than the Republicans, and in particular this current MAGA manifestation.

Of course they do. Which is why it's pointless criticising the MAGA loonies on the issue.

It's the hypocrisy of Democratic leaders that's the issue on Palestine for me.

I said months ago on this thread that maybe they need to be defeated - or nearly defeated - as a result of Arab-Americans abstaining in swing states in protest in order to correct their aberrant behaviour and readjust their own policy making to take account of new demographic realities in the U.S. (the Arab-American population grew by a third between 2010 and 2022 - theylre half the number of the Jewish American population, but will surely outstrip them in the next decade or so). If the Democrats lost Michigan this time around that'd be a very harsh lesson for them to learn. That could happen too - and that's even more likely if the protestors held their noses and voted Trump rather than just abstain.

 

[Ruairi77]

I said months ago on this thread that maybe they need to be defeated - or nearly defeated - as a result of Arab-Americans abstaining in swing states in protest in order to correct their aberrant behaviour and readjust their own policy making to take account of new demographic realities in the U.S. (the Arab-American population grew by a third between 2010 and 2022 - theylre half the number of the Jewish American population, but will surely outstrip them in the next decade or so). If the Democrats lost Michigan this time around that'd be a very harsh lesson for them to learn. That could happen too - and that's even more likely if the protestors held their noses and voted Trump rather than just abstain.

This is a whole paragraph of nonsense.
You've not been paying attention to what Trump has been saying.
Or maybe you're just taking the 'lalalala I cant hear' approach because you want chaos.

 

[Toffeepot]

Of course they do. Which is why it's pointless criticising the MAGA loonies on the issue.

It's the hypocrisy of Democratic leaders that's the issue on Palestine for me.

I said months ago on this thread that maybe they need to be defeated - or nearly defeated - as a result of Arab-Americans abstaining in swing states in protest in order to correct their aberrant behaviour and readjust their own policy making to take account of new demographic realities in the U.S. (the Arab-American population grew by a third between 2010 and 2022 - theylre half the number of the Jewish American population, but will surely outstrip them in the next decade or so). If the Democrats lost Michigan this time around that'd be a very harsh lesson for them to learn. That could happen too - and that's even more likely if the protestors held their noses and voted Trump rather than just abstain.

that would be a very harsh lesson for a lot more than Democrats to learn including Palestinians, American Women, Non-White Americans, Innocent immigrants, Unions workers, gig workers, climate change initiatives, NATO members and more.

I do not think they can do what you expect. It appalls me too that there is blanket support and exercising US influence on Israel has been limited, but as mentioned, every single US Administration has supported Israel since they helped found it and the political influence pro Israelis wield is huge.

What do you think they can do?

With increased threats from Iran and Hezbollah, deliberately orchestrated by Israeli actions on this occasion, probably for this reason, the US are further hamstrung in potentially limiting/ceasing support.

 

[davek]

This is a whole paragraph of nonsense.
You've not been paying attention to what Trump has been saying.
Or maybe you're just taking the 'lalalala I cant hear' approach because you want chaos.

Wherin is the nonsense of that if you're an Arab-American?

 

[Ruairi77]

Wherin is the nonsense of that if you're an Arab-American?

the fact that you think any Arab American Democrat would hold their nose and vote for Trump because it might have a better outcome for Gaza is nonsense.

 

[davek]

that would be a very harsh lesson for a lot more than Democrats to learn including Palestinians, American Women, Non-White Americans, Innocent immigrants, Unions workers, gig workers, climate change initiatives, NATO members and more.

I do not think they can do what you expect. It appalls me too that there is blanket support and exercising US influence on Israel has been limited, but as mentioned, every single US Administration has supported Israel since they helped found it and the political influence pro Israelis wield is huge.

What do you think they can do?

With increased threats from Iran and Hezbollah, deliberately orchestrated by Israeli actions on this occasion, probably for this reason, the US are further hamstrung in potentially limiting/ceasing support.

It's been non-existent not limited.

I ask you the question I asked of @Ruairi77 above: if you're an Arab-American what would your attitude be to the political reaction toward Palestine of the current US administration? Would you want to go out and vote for them?

That's all that's being said here.

And this is how political parties historically survive and prosper if they're lucky: they accommodate and assimilate new realities. How else are they supposed to change and stay relevant? Look at the way the GOP have made inroads into the Latino vote who the Democrats used to be able to count on the vast majority of supporting them. They did it by appealing to core conservative values on matters like religion, education and abortion. There's now a substantial minority of Latinos willing to back the GOP.

 

[davek]

the fact that you think any Arab American Democrat would hold their nose and vote for Trump because it might have a better outcome for Gaza is nonsense.

I said - as you well know - that the likelier outcome is for them to abstain if they do protest this election cycle. And that's likely to be in significant numbers and might well be enough to derail Harris's chances in Michigan. I then stated that 'if' some Arab-Americans voted Trump it'd exacerbate her problem in that state.

 

[Toffeepot]

It's been non-existent not limited.

I ask you the question I asked of @Ruairi77 above: if you're an Arab-American what would your attitude be to the political reaction of the current US administration? Would you want to go out and vote for them?

That's all that's being said here.

And this is how political parties historically survive and prosper if they're lucky: they accommodate and assimilate new realities. How else are they supposed to change and stay relevant? Look at the way the GOP have made inroads into the Latino vote that the Democrats used to be able to count on the majority of supporting them. They did it by appealing to core conservative values on matters like religion, education and abortion. There's now a substantial minority of Latinos willing to back the GOP.

Simply not true. They managed to arrange a ceasefire, albeit temporary, managed to temporarily limit attacks on residential areas. They managed to get aid trucks in that were being blocked, albeit temporarily. They abstained in the UN vote condemning Israeli actions when everyone expected the usual veto. This empowered others to sanction Israel or in the case of the Maldives, a favourite Israeli holiday destination bar them from entry.

They orchestrated a ceasefire supported by Arab nations that Israel then reneged on, because they have hardcore fascists in Netanyahu's coalition that don't regard Palestinians as real people. I don't think anyone expected Israel of all nations to have a fascist leadership but there you go.

Netanyahu would lose control if the coalition breaks up and he is open to prosecution then so keeping it going is in his interest. It is a difficult situation and neither you nor I know what the US can really do to stop it.

Meanwhile Trump et al are discussing building expensive condos on the Gaza Strip once Palestinians have been removed.

I imagine many Arab Americans would weigh up those two things and realise that Trump is definitely not the answer, seeing as he's the guy who enacted a Muslim travel ban as his first act as President and project 25 continues those measures at a higher intensity. He has also been campaigning with an Israeli flag behind him on occasion.
If they cannot vote for either side then maybe many will abstain but it is clear that GOP invitations to Netanyahu versus Democrat boycotting of same shows Arab Americans who is more on their side even if they are not against Israel as a rule.

 

[Ruairi77]

I said - as you well know - that the likelier outcome is for them to abstain if they do protest this election cycle. And that's likely to be in significant numbers and might well be enough to derail Harris's chances in Michigan. I then stated that 'if' some Arab-Americans voted Trump it'd exacerbate her problem in that state.

Look mate, I'm not getting in to all this again. (as he gets in to all this again)
First off, I have a huge issue with how the Democrats are handling Gaza.
Secondly, I'll vote for Harris because I dont vote on just one policy and even if I did, I'd still vote D over R re, Gaza.
Everyone here knows it's a close run thing in Michigan. And yes, if Democrats start voting for Trump, Harris has a problem.
But I would be absolutely shocked if you could find me one Democrat who is voting for Trump because of Palestine.
The uncomitted vote is a great movement and have done all the right things to raise awareness on a national stage.
Harris has already taken a less hardline approach.
Uncommitted voters will, for the most part, opt for Harris in November as long as the other guy is Donald Trump.
Listen to the Americans on this forum Dave. It's actually a fairly good cross section of center and left wing views.
(with the odd nutball thrown in for spice)

 

[davek]

Simply not true. They managed to arrange a ceasefire, albeit temporary, managed to temporarily limit attacks on residential areas. They managed to get aid trucks in that were being blocked, albeit temporarily. They abstained in the UN vote condemning Israeli actions when everyone expected the usual veto. This empowered others to sanction Israel or in the case of the Maldives, a favourite Israeli holiday destination bar them from entry.

They orchestrated a ceasefire supported by Arab nations that Israel then reneged on, because they have hardcore fascists in Netanyahu's coalition that don't regard Palestinians as real people. I don't think anyone expected Israel of all nations to have a fascist leadership but there you go.

Netanyahu would lose control if the coalition breaks up and he is open to prosecution then so keeping it going is in his interest. It is a difficult situation and neither you nor I know what the US can really do to stop it.

Meanwhile Trump et al are discussing building expensive condos on the Gaza Strip once Palestinians have been removed.

I imagine many Arab Americans would weigh up those two things and realise that Trump is definitely not the answer, seeing as he's the guy who enacted a Muslim travel ban as his first act as President and project 25 continues those measures at a higher intensity. He has also been campaigning with an Israeli flag behind him on occasion.
If they cannot vote for either side then maybe many will abstain but it is clear that GOP invitations to Netanyahu versus Democrat boycotting of same shows Arab Americans who is more on their side even if they are not against Israel as a rule.

Come on, FFS. There's 40,000 Gaza dead and a large amount of them have been killed by the supply of US bombs to the Israeli apartheid state.

Do you think an Arab-American is impressed by that?

As for Trump: of course he won't make matters better.

If I were part of that constituency I wouldn't humiliate myself by taking part in the process until one of the big two parties - more likely the Democrats - started to stand up to Israel in a meaningful way.

 

[davek]

Look mate, I'm not getting in to all this again. (as he gets in to all this again) First off, I have a huge issue with how the Democrats are handling Gaza.
Secondly, I'll vote for Harris because I dont vote on just one policy and even if I did, I'd still vote D over R re, Gaza. Everyone here knows it's a close run thing in Michigan. And yes, if Democrats start voting for Trump, Harris has a problem.But I would be absolutely shocked if you could find me one Democrat who is voting for Trump because of Palestine. The uncomitted vote is a great movement and have done all the right things to raise awareness on a national stage.
Harris has already taken a less hardline approach.
Uncommitted voters will, for the most part, opt for Harris in November as long as the other guy is Donald Trump.
Listen to the Americans on this forum Dave. It's actually a fairly good cross section of center and left wing views.
(with the odd nutball thrown in for spice)

...and were duly ignored by the Democrat hierarchy. Maybe that's not the best policy if you're trying to cajole them into voting for Harris on November 5th.

As for Harris: how and in what way has she 'taken a less hardline approach'? Organised a bit of political theatre for 2 minutes standing with Netanyahu and making it look like she was 'disapproving' of him...while all the time being at the centre an administration that's aided his every crime?

There's so much cant and humbug spoken over this issue.

Anyway, we're unlikely to agree on this.

 

[Ruairi77]

...and were duly ignored by the Democrat hierarchy. Maybe that's not the best policy if you're trying to cajole them into voting for Harris on November 5th.

As for Harris: how and in what way has she 'taken a less hardline approach'? Organised a bit of political theatre for 2 minutes standing with Netanyahu and making it look like she was 'disapproving' of him...while all the time being at the centre an administration that's aided his every crime?

There's so much cant and humbug spoken over this issue.

Anyway, we're unlikely to agree on this.

I agree that the Democrats could and should do more.
I disagree that Trump is a better option.
I disagree that abstaining in Michigan is a better option.
You seem to think it is, you seem to think it'll teach the Democrats some sort of lesson.

 

[Toffeepot]

Come on, FFS. There's 40,000 Gaza dead and a large amount of them have been killed by the supply of US bombs to the Israeli apartheid state.

Do you think an Arab-American is impressed by that?

As for Trump: of course he won't make matters better.

If I were part of that constituency I wouldn't humiliate myself by taking part in the process until one of the big two parties - more likely the Democrats - started to stand up to Israel in a meaningful way.

You do know that Israel was well armed before the 40k were killed right? They could easily have executed the war regardless
Most shipments are planned well in advance. They can withhold some shipments but it is merely a gesture of discontent.

The only way to stop it would be to position their troops in the way and take control of the skies. How would that go down with the American public at large?
The UK continue to supply Israel with military equipment too

Both nations were key players in the formation of the state and were supported by many other nations post WW2 but there is a sense of looking out for the delinquent adolescent about the whole thing at this stage. Israel get away with a lot more than they should, no question about it

I'm as annoyed about it as you are but do you have a solution? What can the US do with this current Israeli regime? What constitutes a 'meaningful way'?
Personally I would've liked Netanyahu arrested on American soil and handed over to the Hague but that was never going to happen.

Pulling the plug completely on Israel is not as simple as you seem to think.
Maybe Arab Americans will abstain en masse or maybe they will weigh up the risks of allowing Trump in thereby exacerbating the problem and vote Democrat. Humiliation is a subjective feeling and you can't know how they will approach it.

If your point is it must be frustrating as an Arab American to witness this then I agree. It probably is. It is also frustrating for many other Americans and beyond(us for example) but how do they stop it without weakening Israel long term? Something I don't care about, but many Americans do.