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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

Good analysis mate.

Covid will have similar effects elsewhere - forcing clubs to trim squads and hold on to players they'd rather cash in on given the status of their contract. But whereas the likes of Madrid and Barca can take the hit on losses and still remain the elite in Spain (or Bayern and Dortmund in Germany; Juventus and Inter in Italy), the PL is much more competitive and a team like Liverpool can easily slip out of the elite...as they did for many years prior to FSG turning up.

The other structural factor for them was the almost complete cratering of the much vaunted academy players that were set to make a smooth accession to first team places a year or two back. Liverpool were banking big time on that happening and so maybe held on to a few players in their prime selling years believing they just needed another season out of them while they got the academy players blooded into the first team. But the youngsters fell away badly and weren't as good as they thought; and Covid striking when it did meant that the first teamers in the late 20s and early thirties were / are now a big headache.

They got their projections all wrong.

Yes great points on both and spot on as usual.

On the 1st point, this is the difficulty of the PL and in essence why FSG were the big players in the ESL (along with United to a degree, who lets face Liverpool are merely servile lapdogs for). The long terms trends are already that City and Chelsea are dominating English football, and move forward another 10 years, that's where it's heading. They must look at Arsenal are now and fear it's where they end up. To a degree we are hit with similar pressures but in a different way. if we played in Germany, we are probably in the CL regularly now, on account of being able to muscle in financially. It's one of the peculiarities of what is happening.

I actually think their plan was to press the re-set. They gave Klopp a season or 2 longer with the squad than they hoped, but he has thrown them under the bus last summer (before very quickly winding his neck in). But they've let a squad grow old together and a lot of the value has gone.

As for this academy, I must admit I have no idea where that even came from. They are not renowned for an academy and haven't been for about 25 years. They went nearly 2 decades without bringing through a single player who made 50 league games. City and Chelsea are known as big talent producers. Then you have like a United who don't have the same talent but have brilliant pathways. They have neither. They go on about that Curtis Jones, he's another poor mans Mctominay or whatever. They throw huge sums of money (agents fees, wages and sign on fees) at young players, and barring the occasional eye catching sale (always well below the reported value) it is mainly money down the drain.

I think FSG were sensible going for a re-set, but as you say the two big problems with that are if you end up re-setting below 3/4th. Once you start falling beyond that, it starts to become very difficult to fight your way back in consistently. They also completely lose the fans as well, who are completely unrealistic about their club. They view them as some sort of domestic super club. They are a team who have won 1 title, in very dubious conditions in 32 years. It's 0 leagues in 31 years in normal seasons that don't have a 4 month break and aren't played in July. That's their level now. They are not a City, a Chelsea a United in size. They're not even an Arsenal in all honesty who won 3 leagues in a short space of time.

Those unrealistic expectations they have will be petrol on the fire if they have a period of consolidation, and could make what could be a period of needed re-adjustment into one of crisis (as happened under Hodgson, where they nearly bankrupted their own club) with reckless spending.
 

Yes great points on both and spot on as usual.

On the 1st point, this is the difficulty of the PL and in essence why FSG were the big players in the ESL (along with United to a degree, who lets face Liverpool are merely servile lapdogs for). The long terms trends are already that City and Chelsea are dominating English football, and move forward another 10 years, that's where it's heading. They must look at Arsenal are now and fear it's where they end up. To a degree we are hit with similar pressures but in a different way. if we played in Germany, we are probably in the CL regularly now, on account of being able to muscle in financially. It's one of the peculiarities of what is happening.

I actually think their plan was to press the re-set. They gave Klopp a season or 2 longer with the squad than they hoped, but he has thrown them under the bus last summer (before very quickly winding his neck in). But they've let a squad grow old together and a lot of the value has gone.

As for this academy, I must admit I have no idea where that even came from. They are not renowned for an academy and haven't been for about 25 years. They went nearly 2 decades without bringing through a single player who made 50 league games. City and Chelsea are known as big talent producers. Then you have like a United who don't have the same talent but have brilliant pathways. They have neither. They go on about that Curtis Jones, he's another poor mans Mctominay or whatever. They throw huge sums of money (agents fees, wages and sign on fees) at young players, and barring the occasional eye catching sale (always well below the reported value) it is mainly money down the drain.

I think FSG were sensible going for a re-set, but as you say the two big problems with that are if you end up re-setting below 3/4th. Once you start falling beyond that, it starts to become very difficult to fight your way back in consistently. They also completely lose the fans as well, who are completely unrealistic about their club. They view them as some sort of domestic super club. They are a team who have won 1 title, in very dubious conditions in 32 years. It's 0 leagues in 31 years in normal seasons that don't have a 4 month break and aren't played in July. That's their level now. They are not a City, a Chelsea a United in size. They're not even an Arsenal in all honesty who won 3 leagues in a short space of time.

Those unrealistic expectations they have will be petrol on the fire if they have a period of consolidation, and could make what could be a period of needed re-adjustment into one of crisis (as happened under Hodgson, where they nearly bankrupted their own club) with reckless spending.
FSG's other main asset, the Red Sox, have been allowed to peak and fall away and then rebuild again to make an assault on the top - they aren't alarmed at that, because even in the fallow period they retain their commercial pulling power. That seems to be the corporate philosophy.

I dont see any urgency from the top at Liverpool to fight back to the peak. The incomings and outgoings this summer underlines Liverpool will be allowed to coast along for another season if need be. And Id also throw in that the reaction against FSG from outside and inside the club will have placed a strain on that organisation operating holistically.

All is not well there. They'll fight the way they usually do in all competitions, but essentially they're in the doldrums IMO.
 

FSG's other main asset, the Red Sox, have been allowed to peak and fall away and then rebuild again to make an assault on the top - they aren't alarmed at that, because even in the fallow period they retain their commercial pulling power. That seems to be the corporate philosophy.

I dont see any urgency from the top at Liverpool to fight back to the peak. The incomings and outgoings this summer underlines Liverpool will be allowed to coast along for another season if need be. And Id also throw in that the reaction against FSG from outside and inside the club will have placed a strain on that organisation operating holistically.

All is not well there. They'll fight the way they usually do in all competitions, but essentially they're in the doldrums IMO.

Not only other main asset, but very much the asset they value most on an emotional level, being big baseball fans.

They view it like traders would. You see the long term picture. They will feel that 3 or 4 years pain is worth paying for 2 years of success at the end. And its hard to argue with that. But the challenge is, if in the process of the 3-4 years pain it spirals.

On another side note, seen some stuff about doping. Theyve just drawn with German part timers, a German 2nd division team, and have just fluidly scraped past Mainz (who are akin to a championship team) via a late own goal. So if they are doping to get another 97 point season (I dont think they are or ever have) it is not going very well currently!
 
Made £26m from Wilson, Grujic and some kid.

As I think I've said before, the key phrase is "up to". The downpayments without clauses will be around 50% of that. They will also likely have to pay 20% of the cash to agents and players to offload them. Not that it will be counted that way by net spend FC.
 
Not only other main asset, but very much the asset they value most on an emotional level, being big baseball fans.

They view it like traders would. You see the long term picture. They will feel that 3 or 4 years pain is worth paying for 2 years of success at the end. And its hard to argue with that. But the challenge is, if in the process of the 3-4 years pain it spirals.

On another side note, seen some stuff about doping. Theyve just drawn with German part timers, a German 2nd division team, and have just fluidly scraped past Mainz (who are akin to a championship team) via a late own goal. So if they are doping to get another 97 point season (I dont think they are or ever have) it is not going very well currently!
They split their squad into two teams for those matches, I believe.

Nevertheless, I dont see a great deal being added to that squad, and it's clear that they just dont have the strength in depth to be coasting past such opposition.
 
I know we're all hoping they desperately have a terrible season, but I just can't believe some of the guff on here. I'm American, so maybe I'm looking at this dispassionately as a Toffee abroad who doesn't live in the city, but come on. You can't seriously think they're on PEDs or that their entire club is going to collapse? Wishful thinking, I think.

We've done some sensible business this year bringing in Gray and good backup for Pickford, but just because they've only bought Konate it doesn't mean they're not going to strengthen. Their squad - much as it pains me - is still very good. They did finish 3rd, despite going on that awful run. I don't buy into this stuff about how they 'struggled' past Mainz or that team the other day. It's pre-season, that kinda thing happens. Do we really think we're going to breeze past whoever we end up playing in Florida? No, it'll be a slog. Because players are coming back to fitness.

And as for them not selling their prospects. Well no, they're not getting insane amounts like they were at one point, but they're doing OK in a COVID depressed market. Much better than we are, which is annoying because we should be doing better on that front. We have a good academy and apparently good people running it, yet we're unable to make these kind of profits on players.
 

I know we're all hoping they desperately have a terrible season, but I just can't believe some of the guff on here. I'm American, so maybe I'm looking at this dispassionately as a Toffee abroad who doesn't live in the city, but come on. You can't seriously think they're on PEDs or that their entire club is going to collapse? Wishful thinking, I think.

We've done some sensible business this year bringing in Gray and good backup for Pickford, but just because they've only bought Konate it doesn't mean they're not going to strengthen. Their squad - much as it pains me - is still very good. They did finish 3rd, despite going on that awful run. I don't buy into this stuff about how they 'struggled' past Mainz or that team the other day. It's pre-season, that kinda thing happens. Do we really think we're going to breeze past whoever we end up playing in Florida? No, it'll be a slog. Because players are coming back to fitness.

And as for them not selling their prospects. Well no, they're not getting insane amounts like they were at one point, but they're doing OK in a COVID depressed market. Much better than we are, which is annoying because we should be doing better on that front. We have a good academy and apparently good people running it, yet we're unable to make these kind of profits on players.
Oh hello.
 
I know we're all hoping they desperately have a terrible season, but I just can't believe some of the guff on here. I'm American, so maybe I'm looking at this dispassionately as a Toffee abroad who doesn't live in the city, but come on. You can't seriously think they're on PEDs or that their entire club is going to collapse? Wishful thinking, I think.

We've done some sensible business this year bringing in Gray and good backup for Pickford, but just because they've only bought Konate it doesn't mean they're not going to strengthen. Their squad - much as it pains me - is still very good. They did finish 3rd, despite going on that awful run. I don't buy into this stuff about how they 'struggled' past Mainz or that team the other day. It's pre-season, that kinda thing happens. Do we really think we're going to breeze past whoever we end up playing in Florida? No, it'll be a slog. Because players are coming back to fitness.

And as for them not selling their prospects. Well no, they're not getting insane amounts like they were at one point, but they're doing OK in a COVID depressed market. Much better than we are, which is annoying because we should be doing better on that front. We have a good academy and apparently good people running it, yet we're unable to make these kind of profits on players.

Look at the players they have over 29

VVD
Matip
Thiago
Adrian
Henderson
Milner
Mane
Salah
Shaqiri
Firmino


They will need replacing with younger players over the next 2-3 seasons.

How can they do this successfully when the squads wage bill is enormous, the players wages are so high that any transfer fees they ask for will make deals prohibitive and they dont have much in the way of young players coming through...
 
I know we're all hoping they desperately have a terrible season, but I just can't believe some of the guff on here. I'm American, so maybe I'm looking at this dispassionately as a Toffee abroad who doesn't live in the city, but come on. You can't seriously think they're on PEDs or that their entire club is going to collapse? Wishful thinking, I think.

We've done some sensible business this year bringing in Gray and good backup for Pickford, but just because they've only bought Konate it doesn't mean they're not going to strengthen. Their squad - much as it pains me - is still very good. They did finish 3rd, despite going on that awful run. I don't buy into this stuff about how they 'struggled' past Mainz or that team the other day. It's pre-season, that kinda thing happens. Do we really think we're going to breeze past whoever we end up playing in Florida? No, it'll be a slog. Because players are coming back to fitness.

And as for them not selling their prospects. Well no, they're not getting insane amounts like they were at one point, but they're doing OK in a COVID depressed market. Much better than we are, which is annoying because we should be doing better on that front. We have a good academy and apparently good people running it, yet we're unable to make these kind of profits on players.

Well I have explicitly said I dont buy the peds stuff, and that i think they will probably finish 3rd/4th, so I'm not sure how it could be construed as a collapse. It's just an underachievement given what they have spent on fees/wages.

They got 3rd last season, but it was a massive decline for them. A drop off of nearly 30 points YOY.

I dont know if they will strengthen more or not, but James Pearce seems to think they wont. So might be best addressing your opinions to him. On the business they have done so far, I'm not convinced Konate is an upgrade on the peak CBs they had last year (but may be if they are unable to get back to full fitness). He doesnt get any game time for any other top 6 team though, and in honesty he wouldnt be a starter here either.

They have a decent squad, as you would expect from the 3rd most expensive wage bill in the world. However they dont have the 3rd best squad in the world. And it's being weakened by the loss of a key 1st team player.

Aa for the sales, as weve said multiple times they get decent fees, based on ridiculous milestones that are never met. Like Grujic winning the European Cup and getting the golden boot etc. These are the sort of clauses they stick in. They also pay agents massively and will have to pay to get players off the books. On the 10m for Grujic they will have paid the agent and player probably 2m quid, and taken a deal.that is 5m in guaranteed money with the rest in unlikely milestones.

It's why when they come to tot the "net spend" totals ups, they fall below other teams and they all get really irate. They just dont compute it honestly, they seem incapable of doing so.

As for Grujic, he cost them 5.5m and probably 40-60k in wages ler week. With the squad bonuses he shares on certain seasons that will be closer to 80k in some seasons. So you're looking at 15m+ in wages over 5 seasons. They clawed around 3m back in fees and loans.

So best case scenario for him, is they have spent out 6m + 15m in wages to get back 5m fee and 3m in loan fees at the other end. Agents and players fees at both ends of the deal likely to be 4m ish as well. So it's a deal lose substantially on, but will never be reported as such. I mean if you think that's "ok" the it's up to you, I would say it's a bit underwhelming given the money theyve put into such players.

The point was more broad though. Forget the inflated fees they get for squad guys, they need another big Coutinho type deal to pay for more players. The 100m they sold for (or around 85m they will receive from Barca) helped fund a new set of signings. They dont have a single player in their squad worth that now. The closest (Salah) will probably just wind his contract down for an expensive Bosman if something cant agreed this summer and go and join a big club.

You keep observing from afar though, and seeing how the 3rd most expensively assembled squad in football history manages to finish 10 points above 10th place.
 
I'm looking at the transfer strategy so far (recycled limited cash coming in to buttress certain positions - Konate at CB) and I'd be worried if I'm a Kopite.

They look intent on introducing a PL unproven Elliott, and investing more faith in players like Neco Williams, Tsimakis and Minamino; and retaining players like Keita and Milner. And VVD hasn't been tested again yet and looks like struggling to be fit.

If they sell Salah late in the window they'll be sunk. As it stands I really cant make a case for them getting top 4.

I am willing to bet, that they all turn into world beaters. Or at the very least have some amazing games where some dross will end up buying them for millions.

I hope VVDS leg gets amputated.
 
Their midfield is looking a problem again for them. They needed to spend a lot on that and it doesn't look like happening.

Henderson is bang average and possibly wants away; Fabinho is patchy; Thiago looks unsuited to the PL; Milner is 36 this season and not getting the games in; Keita is always injured; they let Wijnaldum go, and he's their most consistent MF.

I can see them promoting Elliott to the MF group this season.

There's no way they compete in the PL with that lot. They need a player who makes a massive impact - and that'll cost them.
 

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