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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

GroovyAsh said:
I know we're all hoping they desperately have a terrible season, but I just can't believe some of the guff on here. I'm American, so maybe I'm looking at this dispassionately as a Toffee abroad who doesn't live in the city, but come on. You can't seriously think they're on PEDs or that their entire club is going to collapse? Wishful thinking, I think.

We've done some sensible business this year bringing in Gray and good backup for Pickford, but just because they've only bought Konate it doesn't mean they're not going to strengthen. Their squad - much as it pains me - is still very good. They did finish 3rd, despite going on that awful run. I don't buy into this stuff about how they 'struggled' past Mainz or that team the other day. It's pre-season, that kinda thing happens. Do we really think we're going to breeze past whoever we end up playing in Florida? No, it'll be a slog. Because players are coming back to fitness.

And as for them not selling their prospects. Well no, they're not getting insane amounts like they were at one point, but they're doing OK in a COVID depressed market. Much better than we are, which is annoying because we should be doing better on that front. We have a good academy and apparently good people running it, yet we're unable to make these kind of profits on players.
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GroovyAsh said:
I know we're all hoping they desperately have a terrible season, but I just can't believe some of the guff on here. I'm American, so maybe I'm looking at this dispassionately as a Toffee abroad who doesn't live in the city, but come on. You can't seriously think they're on PEDs or that their entire club is going to collapse? Wishful thinking, I think.

We've done some sensible business this year bringing in Gray and good backup for Pickford, but just because they've only bought Konate it doesn't mean they're not going to strengthen. Their squad - much as it pains me - is still very good. They did finish 3rd, despite going on that awful run. I don't buy into this stuff about how they 'struggled' past Mainz or that team the other day. It's pre-season, that kinda thing happens. Do we really think we're going to breeze past whoever we end up playing in Florida? No, it'll be a slog. Because players are coming back to fitness.

And as for them not selling their prospects. Well no, they're not getting insane amounts like they were at one point, but they're doing OK in a COVID depressed market. Much better than we are, which is annoying because we should be doing better on that front. We have a good academy and apparently good people running it, yet we're unable to make these kind of profits on players.
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*sniffs air
 
GroovyAsh said:
I know we're all hoping they desperately have a terrible season, but I just can't believe some of the guff on here. I'm American, so maybe I'm looking at this dispassionately as a Toffee abroad who doesn't live in the city, but come on. You can't seriously think they're on PEDs or that their entire club is going to collapse? Wishful thinking, I think.

We've done some sensible business this year bringing in Gray and good backup for Pickford, but just because they've only bought Konate it doesn't mean they're not going to strengthen. Their squad - much as it pains me - is still very good. They did finish 3rd, despite going on that awful run. I don't buy into this stuff about how they 'struggled' past Mainz or that team the other day. It's pre-season, that kinda thing happens. Do we really think we're going to breeze past whoever we end up playing in Florida? No, it'll be a slog. Because players are coming back to fitness.

And as for them not selling their prospects. Well no, they're not getting insane amounts like they were at one point, but they're doing OK in a COVID depressed market. Much better than we are, which is annoying because we should be doing better on that front. We have a good academy and apparently good people running it, yet we're unable to make these kind of profits on players.
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Hi mate. Post a lot.
 

GroovyAsh said:
I know we're all hoping they desperately have a terrible season, but I just can't believe some of the guff on here. I'm clueless, so maybe I'm looking at this dispassionately as a Red abroad who doesn't live in the city, but is a proud customer. You can't seriously not think they're on PEDs or that their entire club is going to collapse? Accurate thinking, I think.

You've done some sensible business this year bringing in Gray and good backup for Pickford, but just because we've only bought Konate it doesn't mean we're not going to strengthen. Our squad - much as it pains me - is still very good. We did finish 3rd, despite going on that awful run. I don't buy into this stuff about how we 'struggled' past Mainz or that team the other day. It's pre-season, that kinda thing happens. Do I really think Everton going to breeze past whoever we end up playing in Florida? No, it'll be a slog. Because I don't actually know much, but I'm here to annoy you.

And as for us not selling our prospects. Well no, we're not getting insane amounts like we were at one point, but Klopps army are doing OK in a COVID depressed market. Much better than you, which is my view and said as a weak needling point. I actually know nothing about Everton's academy, but I'll say it is poo anyway.
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Fixed thst for you.
 
davek said:
Their midfield is looking a problem again for them. They needed to spend a lot on that and it doesn't look like happening.

Henderson is bang average and possibly wants away; Fabinho is patchy; Thiago looks unsuited to the PL; Milner is 36 this season and not getting the games in; Keita is always injured; they let Wijnaldum go, and he's their most consistent MF.

I can see them promoting Elliott to the MF group this season.

There's no way they compete in the PL with that lot. They need a player who makes a massive impact - and that'll cost them.
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Klopp's style of play doesn't use the midfield. It relies on fast forwards and workhorses in midfield.
 

catcherintherye said:
Yes great points on both and spot on as usual.

On the 1st point, this is the difficulty of the PL and in essence why FSG were the big players in the ESL (along with United to a degree, who lets face Liverpool are merely servile lapdogs for). The long terms trends are already that City and Chelsea are dominating English football, and move forward another 10 years, that's where it's heading. They must look at Arsenal are now and fear it's where they end up. To a degree we are hit with similar pressures but in a different way. if we played in Germany, we are probably in the CL regularly now, on account of being able to muscle in financially. It's one of the peculiarities of what is happening.

I actually think their plan was to press the re-set. They gave Klopp a season or 2 longer with the squad than they hoped, but he has thrown them under the bus last summer (before very quickly winding his neck in). But they've let a squad grow old together and a lot of the value has gone.

As for this academy, I must admit I have no idea where that even came from. They are not renowned for an academy and haven't been for about 25 years. They went nearly 2 decades without bringing through a single player who made 50 league games. City and Chelsea are known as big talent producers. Then you have like a United who don't have the same talent but have brilliant pathways. They have neither. They go on about that Curtis Jones, he's another poor mans Mctominay or whatever. They throw huge sums of money (agents fees, wages and sign on fees) at young players, and barring the occasional eye catching sale (always well below the reported value) it is mainly money down the drain.

I think FSG were sensible going for a re-set, but as you say the two big problems with that are if you end up re-setting below 3/4th. Once you start falling beyond that, it starts to become very difficult to fight your way back in consistently. They also completely lose the fans as well, who are completely unrealistic about their club. They view them as some sort of domestic super club. They are a team who have won 1 title, in very dubious conditions in 32 years. It's 0 leagues in 31 years in normal seasons that don't have a 4 month break and aren't played in July. That's their level now. They are not a City, a Chelsea a United in size. They're not even an Arsenal in all honesty who won 3 leagues in a short space of time.

Those unrealistic expectations they have will be petrol on the fire if they have a period of consolidation, and could make what could be a period of needed re-adjustment into one of crisis (as happened under Hodgson, where they nearly bankrupted their own club) with reckless spending.
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Some good points mate but you're fooling yourself if you think they aren't bigger than City, Chelsea and Arsenal. United no chance but the other 3 unfortunately they are and will be for a long long time regardless of silverware, It's just the way it is unfortunately.
 
catcherintherye said:
Well I have explicitly said I dont buy the peds stuff, and that i think they will probably finish 3rd/4th, so I'm not sure how it could be construed as a collapse. It's just an underachievement given what they have spent on fees/wages.

They got 3rd last season, but it was a massive decline for them. A drop off of nearly 30 points YOY.

I dont know if they will strengthen more or not, but James Pearce seems to think they wont. So might be best addressing your opinions to him. On the business they have done so far, I'm not convinced Konate is an upgrade on the peak CBs they had last year (but may be if they are unable to get back to full fitness). He doesnt get any game time for any other top 6 team though, and in honesty he wouldnt be a starter here either.

They have a decent squad, as you would expect from the 3rd most expensive wage bill in the world. However they dont have the 3rd best squad in the world. And it's being weakened by the loss of a key 1st team player.

Aa for the sales, as weve said multiple times they get decent fees, based on ridiculous milestones that are never met. Like Grujic winning the European Cup and getting the golden boot etc. These are the sort of clauses they stick in. They also pay agents massively and will have to pay to get players off the books. On the 10m for Grujic they will have paid the agent and player probably 2m quid, and taken a deal.that is 5m in guaranteed money with the rest in unlikely milestones.

It's why when they come to tot the "net spend" totals ups, they fall below other teams and they all get really irate. They just dont compute it honestly, they seem incapable of doing so.

As for Grujic, he cost them 5.5m and probably 40-60k in wages ler week. With the squad bonuses he shares on certain seasons that will be closer to 80k in some seasons. So you're looking at 15m+ in wages over 5 seasons. They clawed around 3m back in fees and loans.

So best case scenario for him, is they have spent out 6m + 15m in wages to get back 5m fee and 3m in loan fees at the other end. Agents and players fees at both ends of the deal likely to be 4m ish as well. So it's a deal lose substantially on, but will never be reported as such. I mean if you think that's "ok" the it's up to you, I would say it's a bit underwhelming given the money theyve put into such players.

The point was more broad though. Forget the inflated fees they get for squad guys, they need another big Coutinho type deal to pay for more players. The 100m they sold for (or around 85m they will receive from Barca) helped fund a new set of signings. They dont have a single player in their squad worth that now. The closest (Salah) will probably just wind his contract down for an expensive Bosman if something cant agreed this summer and go and join a big club.

You keep observing from afar though, and seeing how the 3rd most expensively assembled squad in football history manages to finish 10 points above 10th place.
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Definitely no big player sales on the horizon...perhaps TAA but he seemed to get found out defensively last season.

How many of our players get in their team do you think?
 
PaddyJames said:
Some good points mate but you're fooling yourself if you think they aren't bigger than City, Chelsea and Arsenal. United no chance but the other 3 unfortunately they are and will be for a long long time regardless of silverware, It's just the way it is unfortunately.
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Rarely does the established order remain the same over long periods. 10 years ago theyd nearly bankrupted themselves and were in the bottom 3. I mean they might be, but I'd suggest the sides with bigger financial backing are more likely to take the dominant positions.

You go back 15 years, and people would have scoffed at the idea Arsenal would he mid table. In life, things change.
 

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