Everton and Martinez are to blame should Lukaku leave

[davek]

OK let's put these to bed Dave

1)Martinez is being judged on the following criteria (i) he inherited in his own words "a great platform" from which to progress - we haven't progressed we've moved backwards in absolute and relative terms (ii) he's added well to the squad (just to show balance, as I say he has some skills) so the squad has improved but sadly results have not and there's no evidence in the PL of any change to this trend; (iii) the PL landscape has changed, the glass ceiling that existed predominantly in Moyes' days no longer exists due to a combination of increased investment in a wider number of clubs, the decline of previous incumbents in Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool and this season Manchester City, and the tactical astuteness and man management skills of managers such as Ranieri, Pochettino and Bilic. The glaring omission in contenders is our very own Everton.

2) As I've stated on many occasions our current squad is strong enough to compete in the current race for CL positions, that's almost universally acknowledged across the football community - I do not differ from that point of view at all. However I also realise that we must invest further and restructure the squad to increase our competitiveness particularly (i) if we wish to move from a top 4 challenger to a title challenger, and from a CL qualifier to a CL knock-out stage contender, and (ii) in the light of other clubs' spending plans, we must invest and restructure just to stand still. To not do so would mean in relative terms we move backwards - something we saw time and time again in the dark days of no funding being available for squad development under Moyes.

Now should we do this under a manager who has failed to fashion results out of our existing talents and has proven to be unable to compete at the higher levels our current squad suggests, let alone, an enhanced squad at even higher levels, or should we use our new purchasing power to acquire more skilled, more experienced, already proven management who can not only retain existing talent, but enhance and add to it?

It's a no brainer. It's not personal - we'll all wish Martinez the very best, and if he manages to secure a FA Cup win he'll be part of our folklore forever, but he's not the man to take us forward in the current environment and make the best of the opportunities ahead of us.

I cannot be clearer than that - I'm not asking you to agree necessarily as you're clearly of a singular view that Martinez is the man to achieve all we wish for, but you must accept the logic of the position I and many others propose.

That does not put matters to bed. In fact it merely propels you forward into the thicket of contradictions you've entwined yourself in.

1/ The "great platform" you mention was Moyes' legacy: the platform was the greatest team since the 80s (the one before this greatest team since the 80s). Was he remotely ever being shuffled to the exit for failing to land the CL spots on a regular basis (your criteria?). But Martinez - contra to your analysis - did progress that squad forward in terms of its ability to compete in the PL, results wise, and in terms of the level of performance from a football point of view. Were the results maintained? No, but its wrong to baldly state progress hadn't been achieved. As for the squad being improved but him not being able to maximise it: well we've been here above - you concede yourself that no possible incoming manager can achieve a CL spot with the squad. So where's the critique there in terms of dismissing the incumbent manager for not reaching it with this lot? Nowhere. The "glass ceiling" claim: this churn that the PL has gone through in the last season hasn't been to Everton's favour and its 'a chance blown'. The opposite case can more persuasively made that the churn is a result of many teams now being capable of mounting a challenge for top four places in the new financial reality, which has occurred in tandem with loss of form amongst the usual cash doped elite. There has been no window of opportunity - it was a narrower gap to get through, in fact.

2/ This at first read seemed like a restatement rather than anything new. But it's worse than that, it's an attempt to upshift the stakes. Amazingly (in relation to a team that's only recently put a realistic CL points total together) you now say that investment into the squad is required not merely to secure or get near a CL spot, but to win the title...and, wait for it...a CL knock out stage team!!! FFS mate. I know you were caught on the horns of the dilemma you placed yourself on trying to justify giving RM the push, but that is just Alice in Wonderland stuff. Lol.

Yeah, it certainly is a no brainer!!!

 

[Toffeelover]

That does not put matters to bed. In fact it merely propels you forward into the thicket of contradictions you've entwined yourself in.

1/ The "great platform" you mention was Moyes' legacy: the platform was the greatest team since the 80s (the one before this greatest team since the 80s). Was he remotely ever being shuffled to the exit for failing to land the CL spots on a regular basis (your criteria?). But Martinez - contra to your analysis - did progress that squad forward in terms of its ability to compete in the PL results wise and in terms of the level of performance from a football point of view. Were the results maintained? No, but its wrong to baldly state progress hadn't been achieved. As for the squad being improved but him not being able to maximise it: well we've been here above - you concede yourself that no possible incoming manager can achieve a CL spot with the squad. So where's the critique there in terms of dismissing the incumbent manager for not reaching it with this lot? Nowhere. The "glass ceiling": this churn that the PL has gone through in the last season hasn't been to Everton's favour and its a chance blown. The opposite case can more persuasively made that the churn is a result of many teams now being capable of mounting a challenge for top four places in the new financial reality, which has occurred in tandem with loss of form amongst the usual cash doped elite. There has been no window of opportunity - it was a narrower gap to get through, in fact.

2/ This at first read seemed like a restatement rather than anything new. But it's worse than that, it's an attempt to upshift the stakes. Amazingly (in relation to a team that's only recently put a realistic CL points total together) you now say that investment into the squad is required not merely to secure or get near a CL spot, but to win the title...and, wait for it...a CL knock out stage team!!! FFS mate. I know you were caught on the horns of the dilemma you placed yourself on trying to justify giving RM the push, but that is just Alice in Wonderland stuff. Lol.

Yeah, it certainly is a no brainer!!!

Because there is no future in him, so it would make sense to bring in new blood.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

you now say that investment into the squad is required not merely to secure or get near a CL spot, but to win the title...and, wait for it...a CL knock out stage team!!! FFS mate.

So, here we have an example of someone knocking a fellow Evertonian's ambitions; from someone who complains bitterly when those same Evertonians question martinez's 'achievements'...

How many more examples of double standards are you going to demonstrate?

 

[davek]

So, here we have an example of someone knocking a fellow Evertonian's ambitions; from someone who complains bitterly when those same Evertonians question martinez's 'achievements'...

How many more examples of double standards are you going to demonstrate?

I see, so we're supposed to suspend reality and think the new flavour of the month will come in and take us to the title and CL KO stages.

Ok.

 

[davek]

Im thinking more like United or West Ham, that way I dont have to go to London twice to get rid, yano?

Armchair.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

I see, so we're supposed to suspend reality and think the new flavour of the month will come in and take us to the title and CL KO stages.

Ok.

I see, so martinez has done so already?

Ok.

 

[orly]

Armchair.

You're not going to go down this route, are you David.

 

[jinkyali]

I see, so we're supposed to suspend reality and think the new flavour of the month will come in and take us to the title and CL KO stages.

Ok.

If Martinez says we can now compete with anyone financially in football why on earth are the objectives in the short to mid term (1-5years) not realistic that @The Esk proposed?

 

[kithnou]

Calm down everyone...this bloke has it covered. What will be will be.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

If Martinez says we can now compete with anyone financially in football why on earth are the objectives in the short to mid term (1-5years) not realistic that @The Esk proposed?

Might be to do with the fact that david hadn't thought about that. You see, nobody is allowed proclaim any ambition unless they worship the manager who has provided us with two semi-finals this season, and a record PL points total, once upon a time.

Anything that might not involve martinez is sheer bunkum, pie-in-the-sky stuff.

 

[The Esk]

That does not put matters to bed. In fact it merely propels you forward into the thicket of contradictions you've entwined yourself in.

1/ The "great platform" you mention was Moyes' legacy: the platform was the greatest team since the 80s (the one before this greatest team since the 80s). Was he remotely ever being shuffled to the exit for failing to land the CL spots on a regular basis (your criteria?). But Martinez - contra to your analysis - did progress that squad forward in terms of its ability to compete in the PL, results wise, and in terms of the level of performance from a football point of view. Were the results maintained? No, but its wrong to baldly state progress hadn't been achieved. As for the squad being improved but him not being able to maximise it: well we've been here above - you concede yourself that no possible incoming manager can achieve a CL spot with the squad. So where's the critique there in terms of dismissing the incumbent manager for not reaching it with this lot? Nowhere. The "glass ceiling" claim: this churn that the PL has gone through in the last season hasn't been to Everton's favour and its 'a chance blown'. The opposite case can more persuasively made that the churn is a result of many teams now being capable of mounting a challenge for top four places in the new financial reality, which has occurred in tandem with loss of form amongst the usual cash doped elite. There has been no window of opportunity - it was a narrower gap to get through, in fact.

2/ This at first read seemed like a restatement rather than anything new. But it's worse than that, it's an attempt to upshift the stakes. Amazingly (in relation to a team that's only recently put a realistic CL points total together) you now say that investment into the squad is required not merely to secure or get near a CL spot, but to win the title...and, wait for it...a CL knock out stage team!!! FFS mate. I know you were caught on the horns of the dilemma you placed yourself on trying to justify giving RM the push, but that is just Alice in Wonderland stuff. Lol.

Yeah, it certainly is a no brainer!!!

Dave, I've answered every single point you've raised - but I'll do it again:



"The "great platform" you mention was Moyes' legacy" - 2 minutes 40 seconds, Martinez words not mine.

"Was he remotely ever being shuffled to the exit for failing to land the CL spots on a regular basis?" Ambitions were lower, the glass ceiling was wholly intact and the squad of a lower quality than we currently have. The Board had no ambition other than 40 points -something I have spoken about in the past and has been acknowledged on national media.

"Martinez progression" - yes in the first year, no in the second year (benefit of the doubt was given as 2nd year syndrome), no in the third year (poor results, lack of tactical progression and ability to change course of games)

"Squad" please re-read my earlier comments - good enough for CL qualification this year but to maintain relative position and progress as described needs significant restructuring.

"The opposite case can more persuasively made that the churn is a result of many teams now being capable of mounting a challenge for top four places in the new financial reality, which has occurred in tandem with loss of form amongst the usual cash doped elite" How you can justify this current squad at Everton not being in the mix is frankly beyond me when you see the achievements of Leicester, Spurs and West Ham this season, unless of course you want to acknowledge the role of their respective managers and ours.

"But it's worse than that, it's an attempt to upshift the stakes" Yes, and under Moshiri ambitions will be higher. As I stated earlier, if Martinez cannot compete in the current environment how can he compete in an even higher expectation environment - simply he can't. I make no apologies for suggesting the demands on the management team in the future are going to be higher than currently. That's why Moshiri has invested in the club to progress us - and there's no evidence whatsoever that Martinez is the man to achieve that and as a result he needs replacing.

As I said I don't expect you to agree but there's a huge amount of logic behind my view of what's about to happen, and Martinez in failing current expectations has no hope of succeeding in a higher expectation environment even with better players - had he advanced with the current improved squad there would be a case, but he hasn't and there's nothing to suggest he would do so in the future, therefore he has to go.

 

[Woolly Blue]

1) Its not an achievement getting to a semi final, winning it is

This is a poor strategy for arguing with Dave. Look back at our recent history and it plainly is an achievement to get to semi-finals, it's not exactly something we do every season and we've done it twice this season. For sure, ultimately, it's about winning something and it can be used as a smokescreen for our poor league form, but if you're going to get into an argument with someone, don't calmly hand over ammunition for them to shoot you in the foot with.

 

[jinkyali]

Might be to do with the fact that david hadn't thought about that. You see, nobody is allowed proclaim any ambition unless they worship the manager who has provided us with two semi-finals this season, and a record PL points total, once upon a time.

Anything that might not involve martinez is sheer bunkum, pie-in-the-sky stuff.

I have found @davek refuses to answer to be honest on certain stuff.

 

[silent bob]

Dave, I've answered every single point you've raised - but I'll do it again:



"The "great platform" you mention was Moyes' legacy" - 2 minutes 40 seconds, Martinez words not mine.

"Was he remotely ever being shuffled to the exit for failing to land the CL spots on a regular basis?" Ambitions were lower, the glass ceiling was wholly intact and the squad of a lower quality than we currently have. The Board had no ambition other than 40 points -something I have spoken about in the past and has been acknowledged on national media.

"Martinez progression" - yes in the first year, no in the second year (benefit of the doubt was given as 2nd year syndrome), no in the third year (poor results, lack of tactical progression and ability to change course of games)

"Squad" please re-read my earlier comments - good enough for CL qualification this year but to maintain relative position and progress as described needs significant restructuring.

"The opposite case can more persuasively made that the churn is a result of many teams now being capable of mounting a challenge for top four places in the new financial reality, which has occurred in tandem with loss of form amongst the usual cash doped elite" How you can justify this current squad at Everton not being in the mix is frankly beyond me when you see the achievements of Leicester, Spurs and West Ham this season, unless of course you want to acknowledge the role of their respective managers and ours.

"But it's worse than that, it's an attempt to upshift the stakes" Yes, and under Moshiri ambitions will be higher. As I stated earlier, if Martinez cannot compete in the current environment how can he compete in an even higher expectation environment - simply he can't. I make no apologies for suggesting the demands on the management team in the future are going to be higher than currently. That's why Moshiri has invested in the club to progress us - and there's no evidence whatsoever that Martinez is the man to achieve that and as a result he needs replacing.

As I said I don't expect you to agree but there's a huge amount of logic behind my view of what's about to happen, and Martinez in failing current expectations has no hope of succeeding in a higher expectation environment even with better players - had he advanced with the current improved squad there would be a case, but he hasn't and there's nothing to suggest he would do so in the future, therefore he has to go.

Yet another excellent post.

How`s your head and that brick wall??

 

[nsno-chris]

This is a poor strategy for arguing with Dave. Look back at our recent history and it plainly is an achievement to get to semi-finals, it's not exactly something we do every season and we've done it twice this season. For sure, ultimately, it's about winning something and it can be used as a smokescreen for our poor league form, but if you're going to get into an argument with someone, don't calmly hand over ammunition for them to shoot you in the foot with.

Dave doesn't stand a chance arguing with me, its why he never responded to the post. He knows i'm the alpha out of the two of us.

Anyway, this will split some fans, i pesonally don't class anything as an achievement unless the cup is in hand at the end of the year. Yeah its great we had a cup run, but you're potless at the end