Roberto Martinez discussion

[BlueToff]

Top 7 was whose aim?

Didnt martinez promise CL football?

Surely his aim is top 4?

Did he promise top four this season?

No, but of course his aim is to finish as high as possible, just as every other team in the league strives to do.

I'm saying, at the start of the season before a ball was kicked, I think most reasonable Evertonians would have accepted that top 7 and two good cup runs/possibly a cup victory.

Now, we've still got a long way to go this season and either or neither of the above could happen.

 

[BlueToff]

I remember reading an article on Moyes once and his philosophy was based on percentages, his theory was by getting the ball up front quickly then if the ball was in the opponents half for more of the time then we had more chance of scoring. Simple as that.

We score more under Martinez than we did under Moyes, like.

 

[BlueToff]

I envy Leicester's Board's appreciation of odds.

Ranieri was a huge gamble that's paid off for them but they had to change it from Pearson. He'd lost his rag and the situation with his son didn't help.

Glad it's paid off for them.

 

[BlueToff]

He's not inert in that respect though is he? Wasn't it said that Lukaku needed to have more presence on the field and Martinez appointed the galoot to the first team coaching staff (something claimed to have been at the root of Lukaku holding the ball up better)?

On the defensive side of things we shouldn't need to be bringing in defensive coaches. If we had men in there who could organise on the pitch to carry out routine marking at set pieces then that would be enough. Jagielka is an England CB and has worn the armband for his country. By right, we should be able to expect such a figure to be able to get his own defence in shape for corners and free kicks. This is something about Jagielka I've been talking about for ages: he just isn't a leader on the pitch. Baines is another one who does my swede in too. Talks a big game post match at being defensively tighter, but he's got handfuls of England caps and goes missing when defending is required. He just doesn't turn up for that side of the game, which was why I was made up to see him benched and a player like Oviedo take over from him.

There's no way Martinez is going to get a defensive coach in - it'd undermine his authority and is something no manager worth their salt would bend the knee on...and as said it shouldn't even be a requirement if the vastly experienced defenders on the pitch could command a bit of authority.

Think it's a combination of both in that practice makes perfect and all that, but since the turn of the year we have improved defensively.

However, in certain situations Martinez has been let down by his players and the tactics get the blame.

It also happens the other way round, and when Martinez is clearly at fault I won't make excuses for him.

 

[BlueToff]

I think the 'underachieving' tag is being tossed about because people keep going back to the 'HE GOT 72 POINTS' and, for the second year in a row, we will be nowhere near that.

Well, no - when people cite his second season as a reason to sack him it's only fair to cite his first season.

And, in all honesty, that season was so mental. Dave's right in one thing at least in that 72 points is huge - and in any other season would have got us top four if not top three.

Heck, this season, the team that wins it may only get to 75...

 

[BlueToff]

Adaptation is happening all the time with this team. It bears no resemblance to the team last season, still less the one he put out in the first season. Sure, they all have had the hallmark of Martinez, but the tempo this season has been different to the other two (and certainly different to last season when it was chronically slow and a big problem). And I bring that up by way of suggesting that there's every reason to think that problems at the back wont be ignored and will be sorted out in due course...helped no end by a decent GK.

The problem is that some people seem to believe that Martinez should have all this sorted out in 2 to 3 seasons. There's a terrible impatience about all the criticism. There's sweeping statements about lack of leadership and the necessity for outside help and historic blind spots. Just let the man get on with the task of managing the club in the time he's contracted for. Not too much to ask is it? We're not in any danger, and it's not like we're having to jump off the trophy winning carousel for him to be afforded his breathing space to get it right.

Your best post on the subject there mate.

I do understand why people aren't happy, but the impatience of football fans based on this new-found immediacy for success and comparisons to other teams does my nut in.

It's blatantly obvious we're playing much better than last season. Ultimately, the results haven't matched that but slowly and surely we're getting there.

As of now, we're 6 points from 5th placed United - that's literally the difference of holding on for another 5 seconds vs Bournemouth (though the whistle could have been blown depending on who refs it as there is no consistency there), and the officials doing their job at Chelsea and us not being so wasteful with the chances we spurned vs. Palace, Norwich etc.

It's not a big gap and as much as Martinez may be at fault for some of the above, it is in equal parts down to the players on the pitch and having the rub of the green with some clear-cut decisions. Penalties balance themselves out as they are subjective - but offsides and in-consistent time-keeping are too prevalent throughout the league.

Before people pass judgement, I just like to point out that there's plenty of time left in this season.

People will then say 'it's been 18 months' - and that's when it is equally as relevant to point to his first season - and we are playing on the whole much better than we did last season.

 

[BlueToff]

If we take out the games against lower league opposition (not to suit an agenda, just because they skew the statistics as you can't say we conceded 4 to Stoke but 0 to Carlise therefore we've improved) then that reads played 9 conceded 11, scored 14. In the 9 games before that it would read played 9 conceded 13 scored 22. Not sure why you would class that as an improvement.

I noticed that somebody posted yesterday about being surprised at the level of fume since the WBA game due to the fact it was a narrow loss and we dominated. My take on that is that a number of fans have realised that our problems run a lot deeper than they had been willing to admit. Fans had convinced themselves that Howard, a young team and too much attacking had seen us lose some games, but once we recognised this we'd be flying. The WBA game opened some eyes to the fact that we still have the same creativity problems as we had last season, they've just been masked by teams not parking the bus as often this term. In short, when a game is open at home we struggle to win because we can't defend solidly, and when a team shuts up shop we struggle to win because we can't attack creatively. Not a particularly potent mix.

You're right - our problems come at home, for whatever reason, and that is something Martinez has to try and address. But, IMO, it's clear to see he is trying, and I'm willing to give him until the end of the season at least to turn it around.

However, it can't all be down to him for the home results - it has to be down to the players. They just seem to, for whatever reason, panic so easily at home whenever something goes against us, which is a worry. And IMO that's as much down to needing our experienced players like Jags and Baines and Coleman to step up as it is for Martinez to install some steal in them in front of a partially disillusioned Goodison crowd.

 

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

Hopefully #teamplotters can rally and hound this clown out of the club before he takes us to the Championship like Wigan.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

He's not inert in that respect though is he? Wasn't it said that Lukaku needed to have more presence on the field and Martinez appointed the galoot to the first team coaching staff (something claimed to have been at the root of Lukaku holding the ball up better)?

On the defensive side of things we shouldn't need to be bringing in defensive coaches. If we had men in there who could organise on the pitch to carry out routine marking at set pieces then that would be enough. Jagielka is an England CB and has worn the armband for his country. By right, we should be able to expect such a figure to be able to get his own defence in shape for corners and free kicks. This is something about Jagielka I've been talking about for ages: he just isn't a leader on the pitch. Baines is another one who does my swede in too. Talks a big game post match at being defensively tighter, but he's got handfuls of England caps and goes missing when defending is required. He just doesn't turn up for that side of the game, which was why I was made up to see him benched and a player like Oviedo take over from him.

There's no way Martinez is going to get a defensive coach in - it'd undermine his authority and is something no manager worth their salt would bend the knee on...and as said it shouldn't even be a requirement if the vastly experienced defenders on the pitch could command a bit of authority.

I don't follow how bringing in a defensive specialist coach to drill the backline is somehow undermining his authority? It's just good management - bringing in a specialist to work on an area of weakness.

Wheeling out your agenda against Jags in order to defend Martinez just doesn't cut it. This is the same fella who was part of one of the tightest defences in the league under Bobby's predecessor, so putting the blame at his door is utter nonsense - as is the roping in of Baines - who was part of the same set up....

Our defensive woes are down to a lack of drilling on the training ground. Ask any defender who's played the game - the defensive unit works as a unit and it's developed by repetition in practice. We don't (or certainly didn't) even practice defending set plays ffs.

 

[steken1]

Think Pulis work out how to stop us in the second half by doubling up on Lennon, he didn't need to change the shape of his team in the second half at all when our subs were made

But he didn't. That's why people were gutted when Lennon went off

 

[Lanolin]

You're right - our problems come at home, for whatever reason, and that is something Martinez has to try and address. But, IMO, it's clear to see he is trying, and I'm willing to give him until the end of the season at least to turn it around.

However, it can't all be down to him for the home results - it has to be down to the players. They just seem to, for whatever reason, panic so easily at home whenever something goes against us, which is a worry. And IMO that's as much down to needing our experienced players like Jags and Baines and Coleman to step up as it is for Martinez to install some steal in them in front of a partially disillusioned Goodison crowd.

I'm certainly not disagreeing with that. In fact, i don't think anyone is.

Nobody's saying he's not trying. Christ, he wouldn't get out of Goodison alive if people thought he wasn't trying. And i think the vast majority (and certainly I) would agree that he should see out the season. Again, the players obviously have to take some blame, but i think that goes without saying - and let's not pretend they're getting an easy ride either. At the end of the day though, the manager takes the ultimate responsibility. Sherwood, Mourinho, Rodgers etc have all been sacked for underperformance. Their players clearly have to shoulder the blame for performances, but when a manager is not meeting expectations, they will always be the ones who feel the heat. And make no mistake, Everton are not meeting most people's expectations at the moment.

I know that you think we're going in the right direction. I admire your outlook, and I hope you're right. For me though, it's not about individual performances or decisions or pieces of luck, I believe there are fundamental flaws with our tactical make up and attitude which I think will prevent us from ever being where we want to be. Until I see evidence of that being changed, I'll think he's the wrong man for the job.

 

[abelard]

Hopefully #teamplotters can rally and hound this clown out of the club before he takes us to the Championship like Wigan.

 

[davek]

Your best post on the subject there mate.

I do understand why people aren't happy, but the impatience of football fans based on this new-found immediacy for success and comparisons to other teams does my nut in.

It's blatantly obvious we're playing much better than last season. Ultimately, the results haven't matched that but slowly and surely we're getting there.

As of now, we're 6 points from 5th placed United - that's literally the difference of holding on for another 5 seconds vs Bournemouth (though the whistle could have been blown depending on who refs it as there is no consistency there), and the officials doing their job at Chelsea and us not being so wasteful with the chances we spurned vs. Palace, Norwich etc.

It's not a big gap and as much as Martinez may be at fault for some of the above, it is in equal parts down to the players on the pitch and having the rub of the green with some clear-cut decisions. Penalties balance themselves out as they are subjective - but offsides and in-consistent time-keeping are too prevalent throughout the league.

Before people pass judgement, I just like to point out that there's plenty of time left in this season.

People will then say 'it's been 18 months' - and that's when it is equally as relevant to point to his first season - and we are playing on the whole much better than we did last season.

It's all down to fractions mate. You saw after the Stoke game that for a short time we were 7th in the table from 11th or 12th - then we lost the next game and it's 11th. It's snakes and ladders in this league this season beyond the 5 European spots.

As you say, the standard of play is vastly improved on anything we've seen as an attacking unit for years. Quite frankly, any owner of a club is going to look at that alone and laugh their bollocks off at suggestions that a club bouncing between top half places and midtable and scoring goals for fun requires a new manager. That people post about this manager getting the sack and dont see that is scary. How can they be so wide of the mark? The arrogance of social media and the belief that their jaundiced input can change matters, I suppose.

Give the man room to manage. Not even three seasons into the job and just beginning to put a settled squad together that has gained some experience. Anyone reasonable sees that and backs off from the mass hysteria, imo.

I don't follow how bringing in a defensive specialist coach to drill the backline is somehow undermining his authority? It's just good management - bringing in a specialist to work on an area of weakness.

Wheeling out your agenda against Jags in order to defend Martinez just doesn't cut it. This is the same fella who was part of one of the tightest defences in the league under Bobby's predecessor, so putting the blame at his door is utter nonsense - as is the roping in of Baines - who was part of the same set up....

Our defensive woes are down to a lack of drilling on the training ground. Ask any defender who's played the game - the defensive unit works as a unit and it's developed by repetition in practice. We don't (or certainly didn't) even practice defending set plays ffs.

Oh here we go again "agenda". FFS try and have decent debate and leave all that tosh out. Agenda: someone who argues logically against group think is not agenda, it's an attempt to reason.

Have a go.

 

[BlueToff]

Simple for me.

The manager has found his glass ceiling at this level and his players have not therefore there is no point in having a squad of players who are being managed by a manager one level down.

Answer - Keep the players and find a higher level manager who has the ability to command the respect of the players and guide them to the next level.

Or keep the manager who brought these players to the club and are happy to play under him and try and build something sustainable and for the future?

 

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

Disappointed that you would make a joke of 9/11