Roberto Martinez discussion

[bluewally]

We've conceded 11 times since the turn of the year in 11 games in all comps. So an average of 1 per game.

We've scored 19 times in that amount of time.

For me, that's clear indication of improvement since the collapse in that Stoke game.

Yes, it could be better and so could the results, but there is no guarantee that another manager would have this squad playing any better - especially considering it's not like our players don't enjoy playing for RM. We're six points off 5th, had a few decisions gone our way here and there or had we just got over the line in some situations we'd be up there.

Some of that is luck, some down to the manager and some to the players - all in equal measure I'd say.

At the start of the season, top 7 was the aim and two good cup runs. That's still well within our reach, with 12 games left plus however far we get in the FA Cup.

We need a reaction on Saturday to what was a frustrating (but not bad) display the other day and a really disappointing result.

This 'under-achieving' tag is only due to fan's changing expectations a) because of the good football we play and b) because of how this season has turned out with teams like Chelsea, Leicester and Spurs etc.

I agree this season has been frustrating so far but the signs are there for me that we are close. Let's wait until it is over to say we have under-achieved.

Top 7 was whose aim?

Didnt martinez promise CL football?

Surely his aim is top 4?

 

[riddick]

This 'under-achieving' tag is only due to fan's changing expectations a) because of the good football we play and b) because of how this season has turned out with teams like Chelsea, Leicester and Spurs etc.

I agree this season has been frustrating so far but the signs are there for me that we are close. Let's wait until it is over to say we have under-achieved.

I think the 'underachieving' tag is being tossed about because people keep going back to the 'HE GOT 72 POINTS' and, for the second year in a row, we will be nowhere near that.

 

[Lanolin]

We've conceded 11 times since the turn of the year in 11 games in all comps. So an average of 1 per game.

We've scored 19 times in that amount of time.

For me, that's clear indication of improvement since the collapse in that Stoke game.

Yes, it could be better and so could the results, but there is no guarantee that another manager would have this squad playing any better - especially considering it's not like our players don't enjoy playing for RM. We're six points off 5th, had a few decisions gone our way here and there or had we just got over the line in some situations we'd be up there.

Some of that is luck, some down to the manager and some to the players - all in equal measure I'd say.

At the start of the season, top 7 was the aim and two good cup runs. That's still well within our reach, with 12 games left plus however far we get in the FA Cup.

We need a reaction on Saturday to what was a frustrating (but not bad) display the other day and a really disappointing result.

This 'under-achieving' tag is only due to fan's changing expectations a) because of the good football we play and b) because of how this season has turned out with teams like Chelsea, Leicester and Spurs etc.

I agree this season has been frustrating so far but the signs are there for me that we are close. Let's wait until it is over to say we have under-achieved.

If we take out the games against lower league opposition (not to suit an agenda, just because they skew the statistics as you can't say we conceded 4 to Stoke but 0 to Carlise therefore we've improved) then that reads played 9 conceded 11, scored 14. In the 9 games before that it would read played 9 conceded 13 scored 22. Not sure why you would class that as an improvement.

I noticed that somebody posted yesterday about being surprised at the level of fume since the WBA game due to the fact it was a narrow loss and we dominated. My take on that is that a number of fans have realised that our problems run a lot deeper than they had been willing to admit. Fans had convinced themselves that Howard, a young team and too much attacking had seen us lose some games, but once we recognised this we'd be flying. The WBA game opened some eyes to the fact that we still have the same creativity problems as we had last season, they've just been masked by teams not parking the bus as often this term. In short, when a game is open at home we struggle to win because we can't defend solidly, and when a team shuts up shop we struggle to win because we can't attack creatively. Not a particularly potent mix.

 

[Fletch]

Agree in the main but I'd love to know what Martinez brought in our first season that was revolutionary. Under Moyes we had two routes forward, put the back from Distin to Baines who then distributed to either Pienaar or a central midfielder to move us up the pitch. The other one was a long pass into Fellaini or Cahill. We played with overlapping full backs, one up front and creative midfielders (Osman Pienaar Arteta Mirallas etc.)

Martinez also had two routes forward, the one out the back through a large number of passes between centrebacks and midfield or a long ball to Lukaku (I know people like to pretend it doesn't happen but we hit an absolute truck load of them every game. For 13/14 see goals v Newcastle at home and City away.) He also utilises overlapping full backs and one upfront. A slight difference was incorporating more of a footballing number 10 but that was counterbalanced with two defensive midfielders behind him.

Superior attacking players has allowed Martinez to implement a very effective counter attack away from home that Moyes could never master. On the opposite side of the coin Moyes' home form was far better as quicker more penetrative football with more creative players allowed us to break down teams whilst maintaining a good defence. With Martinez at home there's either a struggle to score or we go gung Ho and leave the door wide open.

I don't personally think Martinez has reinvented the wheel or brought us into the modern age. I find his football even in the first season extremely boring at times with the only real thrill coming on the counterattack or when the players throw off tactical instructions and just do their own thing (West Ham cup tie last season, West Brom away second half this season). I think there's actually less true footballers in the team now than under Moyes. There's lots of huge individual talents but they work in an individual way both in attack and defence, there are not many football brains in the team. When Pienaar Arteta Osman Cahill Yakubu Baines were interlinking we had a good core of thinking footballers who all knew how to link play, create chances, one touch football, clever runs etc. the sort of stuff needed to break down packed defences. Against WBA we just saw pointless passing then players thinking 'can I score an individual goal?' Then back to passing. Hardly any clever manipulation of the ball, barely any off the ball movement, no give and goes or variation.

We are thrilling on the counter but our plan A for me is absolutely dour.

I remember reading an article on Moyes once and his philosophy was based on percentages, his theory was by getting the ball up front quickly then if the ball was in the opponents half for more of the time then we had more chance of scoring. Simple as that.

 

[davmaher]

Correct. The fans were in a state of befuddlement with a sense of 'wtf next?'. The following season emboldened everyone to think that what came next was actually going to be much much better...and the let down is what we're witnessing now.

Time for people to get real again and recognise that things aren't going fantastically well but we are putting together something that can make us very competitive along the lines of Martinez's first season again.

Not one Everton fan I spoke to at that time was in any state of "befuddlement" or was thinking "wtf". Maybe you just mix with the doom-mongering ones. Everyone I know was looking forward to a new start, thinking it was time to move on. Regarding Martinez's appointment, again people I spoke to were generally favourable. The worst I heard was "give him a chance and see how it goes".
Using phrases like "the fans" implies your view was common throughout the fan-base. Maybe you should start using phrases like "one or two fans" which is more likely to be accurate. Regarding pundits the only one I heard about making any relegation claims was David James and, again, anyone I spoke to about this thought it was a joke comment from a joke pundit.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I remember reading an article on Moyes once and his philosophy was based on percentages, his theory was by getting the ball up front quickly then if the ball was in the opponents half for more of the time then we had more chance of scoring. Simple as that.

Ranieri is exemplifying this brilliantly, so did Ancelotti at Madrid, Ferguson at United had his midfielders programmed to think 'can I play the striker in?' If not they went wide to the winger who thought the same thing. At some time in the last 5 or so years moving forward at pace became archaic, crossing became 'pragmatic and rudimentary', effective set pieces became a stigma. Don't know why, not seen many teams win anything without all three.

 

[deipnosophist]

My solution is born out of pragmatism. We won't fire Martinez because we cannot bring in anyone who presents a high probability of greater success (and it's not the Everton way, at least under this Board). So we are left with a choice, leave things as they are and hope for improvement in the areas required or adapt the model.

Doesn't matter that football is not an ordinary business, a football club is a living being in a remarkably competitive eco-system and if you are not top of the food chain you have to adapt to survive or as we hope flourish.

We are not a million miles away from achieving success but we need to add management resources to what we have now. If that means adapting the model then we should do it.

Of course I know it's not going to happen, we are living in a period of suspended animation with regards to leadership from the Board nevertheless for me it represents the best option.

I envy Leicester's Board's appreciation of odds.

 

[davek]

I think the frustration has largely been due to the disappointing results personally.

I don't think the off field issues are what's generated the frustration with the manager at all.

We can see the progress in terms of the style of play and when we're at our best we're great to watch, but unfortunately we've been sunk far too often by our porous defence and bewildering game management.

I think @The Esk covered it perfectly in his post. Martinez has got limitations in his skills set, and the truly great managers - take Ferguson for example - admit those areas of weakness and bring in the best they can find to work with them and compliment their areas of shortfall. Ferguson was never a great coach, so he brought it great coaches to work with his squad. Martinez isn't a great defensive coach, so should therefore bring in some assistance in that area. Is his No.2 strong enough to challenge him during the game and offer valuable input with regards to our game management? I would suggest not.

He's still a young manager, but he needs to develop his overall style if he's ever going to achieve something at Everton or beyond imo.

He's not inert in that respect though is he? Wasn't it said that Lukaku needed to have more presence on the field and Martinez appointed the galoot to the first team coaching staff (something claimed to have been at the root of Lukaku holding the ball up better)?

On the defensive side of things we shouldn't need to be bringing in defensive coaches. If we had men in there who could organise on the pitch to carry out routine marking at set pieces then that would be enough. Jagielka is an England CB and has worn the armband for his country. By right, we should be able to expect such a figure to be able to get his own defence in shape for corners and free kicks. This is something about Jagielka I've been talking about for ages: he just isn't a leader on the pitch. Baines is another one who does my swede in too. Talks a big game post match at being defensively tighter, but he's got handfuls of England caps and goes missing when defending is required. He just doesn't turn up for that side of the game, which was why I was made up to see him benched and a player like Oviedo take over from him.

There's no way Martinez is going to get a defensive coach in - it'd undermine his authority and is something no manager worth their salt would bend the knee on...and as said it shouldn't even be a requirement if the vastly experienced defenders on the pitch could command a bit of authority.

 

[willo30]

He's not inert in that respect though is he? Wasn't it said that Lukaku needed to have more presence on the field and Martinez appointed the galoot to the first team coaching staff (something claimed to have been at the root of Lukaku holding the ball up better)?

On the defensive side of things we shouldn't need to be bringing in defensive coaches. If we had men in there who could organise on the pitch to carry out routine marking at set pieces then that would be enough. Jagielka is an England CB and has worn the armband for his country. By right, we should be able to expect such a figure to be able to get his own defence in shape for corners and free kicks. This is something about Jagielka I've been talking about for ages: he just isn't a leader on the pitch. Baines is another one who does my swede in too. Talks a big game post match at being defensively tighter, but he's got handfuls of England caps and goes missing when defending is required. He just doesn't turn up for that side of the game, which was why I was made up to see him benched and a player like Oviedo take over from him.

There's no way Martinez is going to get a defensive coach in - it'd undermine his authority and is something no manager worth their salt would bend the knee on...and as said it shouldn't even be a requirement if the vastly experienced defenders on the pitch could command a bit of authority.

Let's just get rid of the manager and coaching staff and leave it to the players to pick the team and set tactics.

It wasn't the goal on it's own that lost against WBA. It was the overall tactics we seem to always play at home.

 

[davek]

My solution is born out of pragmatism. We won't fire Martinez because we cannot bring in anyone who presents a high probability of greater success (and it's not the Everton way, at least under this Board). So we are left with a choice, leave things as they are and hope for improvement in the areas required or adapt the model.

Doesn't matter that football is not an ordinary business, a football club is a living being in a remarkably competitive eco-system and if you are not top of the food chain you have to adapt to survive or as we hope flourish.

We are not a million miles away from achieving success but we need to add management resources to what we have now. If that means adapting the model then we should do it.

Of course I know it's not going to happen, we are living in a period of suspended animation with regards to leadership from the Board nevertheless for me it represents the best option.

Adaptation is happening all the time with this team. It bears no resemblance to the team last season, still less the one he put out in the first season. Sure, they all have had the hallmark of Martinez, but the tempo this season has been different to the other two (and certainly different to last season when it was chronically slow and a big problem). And I bring that up by way of suggesting that there's every reason to think that problems at the back wont be ignored and will be sorted out in due course...helped no end by a decent GK.

The problem is that some people seem to believe that Martinez should have all this sorted out in 2 to 3 seasons. There's a terrible impatience about all the criticism. There's sweeping statements about lack of leadership and the necessity for outside help and historic blind spots. Just let the man get on with the task of managing the club in the time he's contracted for. Not too much to ask is it? We're not in any danger, and it's not like we're having to jump off the trophy winning carousel for him to be afforded his breathing space to get it right.

 

[davek]

Let's just get rid of the manager and coaching staff and leave it to the players to pick the team and set tactics.

It wasn't the goal on it's own that lost against WBA. It was the overall tactics we seem to always play at home.

*sigh*

 

[davek]

Not one Everton fan I spoke to at that time was in any state of "befuddlement" or was thinking "wtf". Maybe you just mix with the doom-mongering ones. Everyone I know was looking forward to a new start, thinking it was time to move on. Regarding Martinez's appointment, again people I spoke to were generally favourable. The worst I heard was "give him a chance and see how it goes".
Using phrases like "the fans" implies your view was common throughout the fan-base. Maybe you should start using phrases like "one or two fans" which is more likely to be accurate. Regarding pundits the only one I heard about making any relegation claims was David James and, again, anyone I spoke to about this thought it was a joke comment from a joke pundit.

Yes, exactly. I remember that phrase myself too. Give him time....and then 18 months into his time here last winter the same people are asking for him to be sacked.

Collective hysteria has kicked in and reason has jumped out the window.

 

[willo30]

*sigh*

That's right Dave. I'll leave you in you own little bubble now cherry picking stats to back up whatever argument it is you are trying to convince us on that don't exist.

I'm bored of it now.

I'm out.

 

[nevsonlymate]

Do you think Pulis planned to allow us to hit the woodwork twice and for our usually lethal striker to have a bad off day?

Think Pulis work out how to stop us in the second half by doubling up on Lennon, he didn't need to change the shape of his team in the second half at all when our subs were made

 

[Saint Domingo]

Think Pulis work out how to stop us in the second half by doubling up on Lennon, he didn't need to change the shape of his team in the second half at all when our subs were made

Pulis plays the odds, on another day we hit the post and it goes in and we win 2-1. He knows though that on a different day he gets the 1-0 or the 1-1 playing that way. Over the course of a season he knows he has a formula to get enough points to get lower midtable.

Martinez sadly is doing the same even though he doesn't want to admit it. His style means that one day we might win 3-0 or draw 2-2 or lose by a single goal. There's not enough consistency or quality in his tactics to rise above 'one of those days' law of chance. With truly good managers they have 'one of those days' very rarely. We seem to have them quite regularly. Martinez cannot control the outcome of games on s regular enough basis. Yes there's big wins, good away performances, but also truly awful home performances. This leads to poor league positions and shows that Martinez is just not displaying the game management capability required from a top manager.!Like Pulis he cannot dictate the outcome of a game and is therefore victim to externsl factors. Makes for a great woe is me story, but ultimately even when winning or losing he's not in control.