Roberto Martinez discussion

[BlueToff]

i think thats fair enough, maybe we could look at coaching team and even the number 2? he certainly hardly gets any mentions...actually, i dont even know his name lol but i always knew steve round, but that was prob all the slating he got for his headset..

Graham (sp?) Jones is our no.2 mate.

I agree on the general principle of getting a more defensive-minded coach in behind the scenes, but since the turn of the year we have definitley looked more solid and that can only be down to RM changing his thought somehwat.

It's lazy (not that you've said any of this I may add) criticism to say it's just down to his defending. The other day was mainly down to us missing a load of chances and experienced player in McCarthy not doing his job in tracking Rondon.

 

[Lanolin]

No, I said that the system Martinez implements to create chances does work - and that's down to the players as well on the pitch. But it's not Martinez's fault that those chances didn't get finished off...

In some ways, i think it is his fault.

How many of the 'chances' we had on saturday fell to Lukaku? Or Kone when he came on? Not many. I'd say our best chances fell to Mori and Barry, which is not the sign of a system working to create chances. Of the ridiculous number of shots we had, I can remember off the top off my head Jagielka and Mori having 40 yarders, and both full backs shooting (more than once) on their wrong foot. To me that suggests a team pushing more and more players forward and players getting more and more desperate to take any opportunity to get a shot in, rather than a cohesive plan to break a team down. At one point we took what looked like a nice free kick from the edge of the box but then you saw it was James McCarthy who was tasked with shooting from 20 yards because of it. That's not sensible football.

I'm not putting all the blame at Martinez's door, the players must take a large portion of the blame too, but this idea that we played scintillating stuff and created a shedload of chances and were just beaten by a tactical genius and some bad luck has no basis in reality.

 

[BlueToff]

In some ways, i think it is his fault.

How many of the 'chances' we had on saturday fell to Lukaku? Or Kone when he came on? Not many. I'd say our best chances fell to Mori and Barry, which is not the sign of a system working to create chances. Of the ridiculous number of shots we had, I can remember off the top off my head Jagielka and Mori having 40 yarders, and both full backs shooting (more than once) on their wrong foot. To me that suggests a team pushing more and more players forward and players getting more and more desperate to take any opportunity to get a shot in, rather than a cohesive plan to break a team down. At one point we took what looked like a nice free kick from the edge of the box but then you saw it was James McCarthy who was tasked with shooting from 20 yards because of it. That's not sensible football.

I'm not putting all the blame at Martinez's door, the players must take a large portion of the blame too, but this idea that we played scintillating stuff and created a shedload of chances and were just beaten by a tactical genius and some bad luck has no basis in reality.

No I agree on the last point mate.

I think we got done because Pulis knew how to play us, but it wasn't like it was a dire performance from us.

RM tried to change it up with the subs but it didn't work, and as for Lukaku, he was marked by two players constantly. The one thing that lad needs is space. Looking back, even though we all wanted him to start the same winning team, playing Kone from the off may have been the way to go as, even though he isn't good, he does tend to draw away a marker as naturally that's what defenders do.

And I also agree on the sensible football part, and that Martinez should have had a plan to break them down. I'm sure he did, in fairness - it just didn't work. So it's not so much that he doesn't have a plan, it just got found out - while West Brom - for all of our efforts that were ridiculous - rode their luck and got away with it as well.

I'm looking for a response vs Bournemouth now. Not that it will mean that all is well, but it'll at least indicate we still h ave the confidence to play like we know we can and how we had been playing in recent games.

 

[willo30]

Graham (sp?) Jones is our no.2 mate.

I agree on the general principle of getting a more defensive-minded coach in behind the scenes, but since the turn of the year we have definitley looked more solid and that can only be down to RM changing his thought somehwat.

It's lazy (not that you've said any of this I may add) criticism to say it's just down to his defending. The other day was mainly down to us missing a load of chances and experienced player in McCarthy not doing his job in tracking Rondon.

Whilst I'd like to see a defensive coach brought in I don't think this is the only issue.

Playing 2 defensive midfielders at home to WBA and the like is the issue. It works away from home as teams attack you more but at home teams are happy to sit back knowing we have one less attacking player on the pitch. 11 wins at home since the start of last season proves this needs changing. Playing with just the one could have given us more fire power up front and could have encouraged WBA to maybe push out every now and then.

Sometimes the solution is as simple as this.

 

[BlueToff]

Whilst I'd like to see a defensive coach brought in I don't think this is the only issue.

Playing 2 defensive at home to WBA and the like is the issue. It works away from home as teams attack you more but at home teams are happy to sit back knowing we have one less attacking player on the pitch. 11 wins at home since the start of last season proves this needs changing. Playing with just the one could have given us more fire power up front and could have encouraged WBA to maybe push out every now and then.

Sometimes the solution is as simple as this.

Potentially, yes. Though we played that system when McCarthy and Besic were out and we had little success. Barkley just isn't as effective from deep, and Cleverley is better more advanced tbh.

So maybe it's not as simple.

What I do agree with is that, after 70 minutes on saturday, he should have taken McCarthy off and brought on Mirallas/Pienaar. This is why I say his tactics during games that desperately need changing are one of his biggest faults.

I don't normally have a problem with how he sets up, tbh.

 

[steken1]

No I agree on the last point mate.

I think we got done because Pulis knew how to play us, but it wasn't like it was a dire performance from us.

RM tried to change it up with the subs but it didn't work, and as for Lukaku, he was marked by two players constantly. The one thing that lad needs is space. Looking back, even though we all wanted him to start the same winning team, playing Kone from the off may have been the way to go as, even though he isn't good, he does tend to draw away a marker as naturally that's what defenders do.

And I also agree on the sensible football part, and that Martinez should have had a plan to break them down. I'm sure he did, in fairness - it just didn't work. So it's not so much that he doesn't have a plan, it just got found out - while West Brom - for all of our efforts that were ridiculous - rode their luck and got away with it as well.

I'm looking for a response vs Bournemouth now. Not that it will mean that all is well, but it'll at least indicate we still h ave the confidence to play like we know we can and how we had been playing in recent games.

Do you think Pulis planned to allow us to hit the woodwork twice and for our usually lethal striker to have a bad off day?

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

I've brought your response in here to save cluttering up the "on the fence" thread.

I stand by what I said and the context in which I made the claim of him not being a leader. Sure he has leadership abilities but not the leadership abilities to regularly win trophies at Everton given the level of competition we face. Being able to run a corner shop does not make you necessarily the best candidate for running Marks and Spencer.

So rather than throw him out or most likely hope he acquires skills so far not evident in his managerial career, any sensible organisation would analyse his skill sets and bring in support where there are weaknesses. He has two weaknesses as far as I am concerned both of which are hard to refute.

Firstly defensively - it is very apparent that he places little emphasis or importance on this aspect of the game, so why not bring in a defensive coach? There's no logical reason why we couldn't set up better defensively without putting constraints on our attacking abilities - in fact a better drilled back four would reduce the necessity for playing two defensive midfielders every game.

Secondly and perhaps more significantly is his lack of tactical awareness, both in setting up prior to a game but also reacting to changing conditions during a game be they the scoreline or a tactical change by the opposition.

So let's play to his strengths - he's particularly good at developing young talent there's no question about that, he seems very able in spotting players so again there's something we should continue to use and develop.

To conclude, he's not got the full suite of talents to allow him to go head to head with the very best managerial talents in the world, that's not a criticism (nor a vortex of hysteria lol). He's a number of talents that we should continue to utilise but he needs support. There's no rule in football that says we have one manager, the reality is that we have a coaching team already - we need to add to that with senior appointments. to make the most of what Martinez offers, otherwise we will continue to fall short with the inevitable consequences for all concerned.

Thats been my point all along @The Esk, in the 10 years (give or take) he has been a manager this tag has followed him around of being highly attacking but light at the back. Everyone said he would be successful at Everton because of our defenders and "wigan had rubbish players at the back" (that was actually word for word said to me).

In all that time he hasn't brought in anyone to help him on the defensive side and balance out his obvious skill for attacking. I don't know the man enough to say anything, but its either stubbornness or just pure idiocy that he refuses to get help.

The failure to plug the gap in his skill set will be his undoing.... that and maybe the fact he will say phenomenal one too many times and spontaneously combust.

 

[dano195]

Always been a fan of Martinez. Purely for the first season he was with us, he brought something different to club a type of playing that we hadn't seen under Moyes. Recently though the frustration of performance's has changed my feeling. Defensively we look awful, all over the place and I feel we have too many players playing for themselves. With our current squad we could easily be top 4 if we had the right man in charge, Martinez isn't that man anymore. We are massively under achieving.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I think the frustration has largely been due to the disappointing results personally.

I don't think the off field issues are what's generated the frustration with the manager at all.

We can see the progress in terms of the style of play and when we're at our best we're great to watch, but unfortunately we've been sunk far too often by our porous defence and bewildering game management.

I think @The Esk covered it perfectly in his post. Martinez has got limitations in his skills set, and the truly great managers - take Ferguson for example - admit those areas of weakness and bring in the best they can find to work with them and compliment their areas of shortfall. Ferguson was never a great coach, so he brought it great coaches to work with his squad. Martinez isn't a great defensive coach, so should therefore bring in some assistance in that area. Is his No.2 strong enough to challenge him during the game and offer valuable input with regards to our game management? I would suggest not.

He's still a young manager, but he needs to develop his overall style if he's ever going to achieve something at Everton or beyond imo.

Whilst I agree we could have a stronger number 2 I think it's harsh to say that Ferguson was a poor coach. He had numerous number 2s but throughout his tenure United pretty much played the same way. Most of those number 2s have failed to make much of an impact anywhere else. Perhaps he hired people he knew would keep him sharp rather than yes men. I also remember reading that Quieroz pretty much masterminded the 08 semi victory over Barcelona from a defensive point of view. With him gone they lost in 09 and 11. Clearly it was style of play Fergie did not want to do but knew he had to to win so allowed Quieroz to have his way. Plan A premier league 442 wingers quick transition was clearly all Fergie's with his assistants doing nothing more than carrying out basic training and challenging him when necessary or coming up with bespoke game plans that moved away from his standard formula.

Jones looks as though he just empties the bags of balls and cones and plays good cop to Martinez's good cop.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Always been a fan of Martinez. Purely for the first season he was with us, he brought something different to club a type of playing that we hadn't seen under Moyes. Recently though the frustration of performance's has changed my feeling. Defensively we look awful, all over the place and I feel we have too many players playing for themselves. With our current squad we could easily be top 4 if we had the right man in charge, Martinez isn't that man anymore. We are massively under achieving.

Agree in the main but I'd love to know what Martinez brought in our first season that was revolutionary. Under Moyes we had two routes forward, put the back from Distin to Baines who then distributed to either Pienaar or a central midfielder to move us up the pitch. The other one was a long pass into Fellaini or Cahill. We played with overlapping full backs, one up front and creative midfielders (Osman Pienaar Arteta Mirallas etc.)

Martinez also had two routes forward, the one out the back through a large number of passes between centrebacks and midfield or a long ball to Lukaku (I know people like to pretend it doesn't happen but we hit an absolute truck load of them every game. For 13/14 see goals v Newcastle at home and City away.) He also utilises overlapping full backs and one upfront. A slight difference was incorporating more of a footballing number 10 but that was counterbalanced with two defensive midfielders behind him.

Superior attacking players has allowed Martinez to implement a very effective counter attack away from home that Moyes could never master. On the opposite side of the coin Moyes' home form was far better as quicker more penetrative football with more creative players allowed us to break down teams whilst maintaining a good defence. With Martinez at home there's either a struggle to score or we go gung Ho and leave the door wide open.

I don't personally think Martinez has reinvented the wheel or brought us into the modern age. I find his football even in the first season extremely boring at times with the only real thrill coming on the counterattack or when the players throw off tactical instructions and just do their own thing (West Ham cup tie last season, West Brom away second half this season). I think there's actually less true footballers in the team now than under Moyes. There's lots of huge individual talents but they work in an individual way both in attack and defence, there are not many football brains in the team. When Pienaar Arteta Osman Cahill Yakubu Baines were interlinking we had a good core of thinking footballers who all knew how to link play, create chances, one touch football, clever runs etc. the sort of stuff needed to break down packed defences. Against WBA we just saw pointless passing then players thinking 'can I score an individual goal?' Then back to passing. Hardly any clever manipulation of the ball, barely any off the ball movement, no give and goes or variation.

We are thrilling on the counter but our plan A for me is absolutely dour.

 

[BlueToff]

Do you think Pulis planned to allow us to hit the woodwork twice and for our usually lethal striker to have a bad off day?

No I don't... which is kind of my point and why i've also said numerous times that WBA rode their luck...

 

[The Esk]

This is football, not an ordinary business. The culture even now is one where the manager wants and needs to be hands on and responsible for all aspects of the club. Your solution is to expect all that to be overthrown, and it's not happening in a hurry.

My solution is born out of pragmatism. We won't fire Martinez because we cannot bring in anyone who presents a high probability of greater success (and it's not the Everton way, at least under this Board). So we are left with a choice, leave things as they are and hope for improvement in the areas required or adapt the model.

Doesn't matter that football is not an ordinary business, a football club is a living being in a remarkably competitive eco-system and if you are not top of the food chain you have to adapt to survive or as we hope flourish.

We are not a million miles away from achieving success but we need to add management resources to what we have now. If that means adapting the model then we should do it.

Of course I know it's not going to happen, we are living in a period of suspended animation with regards to leadership from the Board nevertheless for me it represents the best option.

 

[Professor Toffee]

Whilst I agree we could have a stronger number 2 I think it's harsh to say that Ferguson was a poor coach. He had numerous number 2s but throughout his tenure United pretty much played the same way. Most of those number 2s have failed to make much of an impact anywhere else. Perhaps he hired people he knew would keep him sharp rather than yes men. I also remember reading that Quieroz pretty much masterminded the 08 semi victory over Barcelona from a defensive point of view. With him gone they lost in 09 and 11. Clearly it was style of play Fergie did not want to do but knew he had to to win so allowed Quieroz to have his way. Plan A premier league 442 wingers quick transition was clearly all Fergie's with his assistants doing nothing more than carrying out basic training and challenging him when necessary or coming up with bespoke game plans that moved away from his standard formula.

Jones looks as though he just empties the bags of balls and cones and plays good cop to Martinez's good cop.

Jones you say?

 

[BlueToff]

Always been a fan of Martinez. Purely for the first season he was with us, he brought something different to club a type of playing that we hadn't seen under Moyes. Recently though the frustration of performance's has changed my feeling. Defensively we look awful, all over the place and I feel we have too many players playing for themselves. With our current squad we could easily be top 4 if we had the right man in charge, Martinez isn't that man anymore. We are massively under achieving.

We've conceded 11 times since the turn of the year in 11 games in all comps. So an average of 1 per game.

We've scored 19 times in that amount of time.

For me, that's clear indication of improvement since the collapse in that Stoke game.

Yes, it could be better and so could the results, but there is no guarantee that another manager would have this squad playing any better - especially considering it's not like our players don't enjoy playing for RM. We're six points off 5th, had a few decisions gone our way here and there or had we just got over the line in some situations we'd be up there.

Some of that is luck, some down to the manager and some to the players - all in equal measure I'd say.

At the start of the season, top 7 was the aim and two good cup runs. That's still well within our reach, with 12 games left plus however far we get in the FA Cup.

We need a reaction on Saturday to what was a frustrating (but not bad) display the other day and a really disappointing result.

This 'under-achieving' tag is only due to fan's changing expectations a) because of the good football we play and b) because of how this season has turned out with teams like Chelsea, Leicester and Spurs etc.

I agree this season has been frustrating so far but the signs are there for me that we are close. Let's wait until it is over to say we have under-achieved.

 

[D410]

Sometime you just have to recognise that some things don,t work out rather than hoping they will.
This board is rudderless but never under estimate the blue noses..it could get very nasty if we are dumped out of the cup and drift for the rest of the season. IMHO, the media small blood not off the back of a non existent board but they know the fan base is ready to kick off at a key trigger point.

NSNO have never been more relevant.