Roberto Martinez discussion

[neil999]

It's about relative money though isn't it and what that can buy you. Yes West Ham are throwing a bit around, so are Stoke and Newcastle and lots of teams including us (don't see many sides spending 30 mill on a striker and yes contrary to popular belief they are all selling players as well as buying). Compare that to Moyes having his best player sold every year and going numerous transfer windows without a first team purchase. Meanwhile teams like Villa Ciry Liverpool Spurs (the teams we expected to compete against) were throwing around huge amounts and they were huge relative amounts. The 20 mill Liverpool splashed on Torres is probably a relatively bigger fee than the 30 they spent on Benteke. How much for a young Torres in today's market?

I don't buy the argument that the league is better now than it was or that Moyes somehow had it easy. We are allowing Martinez to keep his good players and giving him funds for new ones. Moyes was selling good ones and getting cheap loans in. Regardless of money we have a better squad than West Ham Stoke Watford Southampton etc. We should be showing that.

absolutely, im just saying doing a like for like comparison with moyes is very difficult due to things changing

 

[neil999]

I tell you what mate: even that sequence - if you'd have offered that to fans of this club a few seasons ago when Moyes said he was leaving and they were panicking over 'spiralling out of control', many would have snatched your hand off for that type of form as long as the footy became more watchable.

Martinez maybe came in and put down a first season marker that's raised expectations.

predicted to be in relegation trouble by a few pundits...

 

[Bob Elstone]

We've got the 2nd best striker in the division mate (behind only Aguero) when did we ever have a striker even remotely close to that level in the previous 2 decades?

And yet we're still midtable at best! The buck stops with coco the clown.

 

[davek]

predicted to be in relegation trouble by a few pundits...

Correct. The fans were in a state of befuddlement with a sense of 'wtf next?'. The following season emboldened everyone to think that what came next was actually going to be much much better...and the let down is what we're witnessing now.

Time for people to get real again and recognise that things aren't going fantastically well but we are putting together something that can make us very competitive along the lines of Martinez's first season again.

 

[bicycleheader]

I've brought your response in here to save cluttering up the "on the fence" thread.

I stand by what I said and the context in which I made the claim of him not being a leader. Sure he has leadership abilities but not the leadership abilities to regularly win trophies at Everton given the level of competition we face. Being able to run a corner shop does not make you necessarily the best candidate for running Marks and Spencer.

So rather than throw him out or most likely hope he acquires skills so far not evident in his managerial career, any sensible organisation would analyse his skill sets and bring in support where there are weaknesses. He has two weaknesses as far as I am concerned both of which are hard to refute.

Firstly defensively - it is very apparent that he places little emphasis or importance on this aspect of the game, so why not bring in a defensive coach? There's no logical reason why we couldn't set up better defensively without putting constraints on our attacking abilities - in fact a better drilled back four would reduce the necessity for playing two defensive midfielders every game.

Secondly and perhaps more significantly is his lack of tactical awareness, both in setting up prior to a game but also reacting to changing conditions during a game be they the scoreline or a tactical change by the opposition.

So let's play to his strengths - he's particularly good at developing young talent there's no question about that, he seems very able in spotting players so again there's something we should continue to use and develop.

To conclude, he's not got the full suite of talents to allow him to go head to head with the very best managerial talents in the world, that's not a criticism (nor a vortex of hysteria lol). He's a number of talents that we should continue to utilise but he needs support. There's no rule in football that says we have one manager, the reality is that we have a coaching team already - we need to add to that with senior appointments. to make the most of what Martinez offers, otherwise we will continue to fall short with the inevitable consequences for all concerned.

I would also add stubbornness / pig headeness / arrogance or whatever you want call it to that too mate.

The defensive problems have been obvious since last season yet he still carries on regardless with his " they score one, we score two philosophy etc ".

A good manager of anything whether football or running an office needs a team around him to support him and also to delegate responsibility too. His failure to address the defensive problems and idly wave them away as being not important is astounding.

His failure to accept this and address this will I feel ultimately be his downfall .

I'm on the fence by the way and he's till the end of season as far as I 'm concerned .

We obviously have defensive flaws but saying he places no emphasis on defence or doesnt consider it important is just a tad hyperbolic and is just repetition of a flawed line based on some quotes.

Having a bad defense and being an attacking manager doesn´t necessarily equate to not caring about defence. You would need to see all our training drills to know that. And none of us do.

Him saying he doesnt care about clean sheets if they win does not back up the criticism either or state as a fact that he thinks defending isn´t important.

Sorry but these kind of criticisms are being repeated a lot and its a bit of a causation/correlation thing.

We obviously all can only go on what little info we have and from watching the games. By all means watch the games, read the stats and call the defense crap, but IMO when you go a step further and say he doesn´t care about defending you are jumping off the cliff with your opinion.

 

[willo30]

I tell you what mate: even that sequence - if you'd have offered that to fans of this club a few seasons ago when Moyes said he was leaving and they were panicking over 'spiralling out of control', many would have snatched your hand off for that type of form as long as the footy became more watchable.

Martinez maybe came in and put down a first season marker that's raised expectations.

Not mine. My expectations were for him not to take us backwards with what he inherited. First season was a fluke. I was hoping last season was a fluke as well and his real talent is somewhere in between.

Can you see this team making champions league next season? I can't but this was Bobby's promise when he took over. He signed an original 4 year deal and promised Bill he would get him CL. This squad is miles away from where he seen it going when he took over.

 

[BlueToff]

Here's another fact for you.For two seasons in a row we are underachieving in the league under the current regime.We have only won 4 games at Goodison this season.At the end of the day the buck stops with the manager.When a company is underperfoming and not meeting it's sales and profit targets.Do you really think a load of could have and should have excuses will cut it when the manager reports to the senior directors of the company for the end of year review?

No. But, back to football, we've showed enough times this season how good we can be and I'm personally willing to give the squad/Martinez more time to get it right, because I think the signs of promise are definitely there.

This season isn't over. This time last week we were 8th and not under-achieving. One defeat and it's the end of the world again.

 

[D410]

Simple for me.

The manager has found his glass ceiling at this level and his players have not therefore there is no point in having a squad of players who are being managed by a manager one level down.

Answer - Keep the players and find a higher level manager who has the ability to command the respect of the players and guide them to the next level.

 

[BlueToff]

Were in with a very good shout of the top 7.So that's what's good enough for Everton now is it 7th place?

No, but at the start of the season had somebody told you we'd finish top 7, get to the semi-final of one cup and who knows about the FA Cup, most Evertonian's would take it. So let's wait and see.

 

[neil999]

Correct. The fans were in a state of befuddlement with a sense of 'wtf next?'. The following season emboldened everyone to think that what came next was actually going to be much much better...and the let down is what we're witnessing now.

Time for people to get real again and recognise that things aren't going fantastically well but we are putting together something that can make us very competitive along the lines of Martinez's first season again.

bet he wishes he finished 7th in his first season now..

 

[BlueToff]

I'm really not the one trying to have it both ways.

Firstly, I can assure you that nobody would have been criticising Martinez for playing a possession based game had we won at City, just like nobody would have complained if we'd only left our own half once but scored and won 1-0. It's a results business, and it's totally disingenuous to suggest he'd have been criticised for going to the Etihad, hogging possession and getting us through.

My point was that the stats don't always reflect the way a game actually happens. As an example, most fans would believe we should have won at Bournemouth and Chelsea but look at the stats from those games and you'll find we had less possession, less shots and less shots on target in both games. It doesn't change my opinion that we were the better side in both games, but it shows that stats don't really paint a true picture of what you're seeing. Further to that, it should be noted that the stats you're presenting to suggest our game was just the same as the Spurs game actually show us having less possession, shots and shots on target than they did, so even if the stats argument was valid, these particular ones wouldn't really help your case.

Finally, with regard to the points you've made in a couple of other posts, why are we suggesting that Martinez cannot be blamed for players making mistakes, but can be given credit for them doing what they're paid for? What was it you said? 'Can't have it both ways...'

No, I said that the system Martinez implements to create chances does work - and that's down to the players as well on the pitch. But it's not Martinez's fault that those chances didn't get finished off...

 

[willo30]

bet he wishes he finished 7th in his first season now..

Or his second.

 

[BlueToff]

And yet we're still midtable at best! The buck stops with coco the clown.

Good things come to those who wait.

I don't want a manager who got us to 5th in his first season playing some superb stuff to go just yet.

His second season was poor, bar the European campaign.

So far this season has been frustrating, but the signs of improvement have clearly been there for all to see.

Let's get to the summer and re-assess then. I'm positive that we can end this season on a high (relatively speaking), and hopefully we can hang on to most of our key players - in fact, I don't think anymore than one key player will leave - and that player may have left whether we got top four or not.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Believe me, that's what I'm trying to do. I accept the imbalance in the team and it needs to be addressed (although one goal conceded in the last four games is encouraging and is being lost sight of here).

We have to also recognise though that Moyes was said to have 'had the best squad since the 80s' when he was here, and though the results he got were very acceptable, they were never troubling the elite.

What's depressing though is the hysteria surrounding all discussion of the team and manager. It's nonsensical. @magicjuan makes a very good point in the takeover thread that the furore over the on-field season has its roots in the frustration about what's going on or not going on off-field in terms of new owners/investment. That rings true, because on-field anyone with the ability to just pan back a bit and take an overview of the situation can see that in terms of overall momentum with squad strength and the type of open play we are capable of in almost all games now there is a lot of progress being made.

I'm staggered by the lack of calm assessment. Not all posters are falling into line with the hysteria, but significant amounts are and it's utterly ridiculous. There doesn't seem to be a sense of recent history or the ability to look at trajectory other than to react to one results affect on the table placings.

I think the frustration has largely been due to the disappointing results personally.

I don't think the off field issues are what's generated the frustration with the manager at all.

We can see the progress in terms of the style of play and when we're at our best we're great to watch, but unfortunately we've been sunk far too often by our porous defence and bewildering game management.

I think @The Esk covered it perfectly in his post. Martinez has got limitations in his skills set, and the truly great managers - take Ferguson for example - admit those areas of weakness and bring in the best they can find to work with them and compliment their areas of shortfall. Ferguson was never a great coach, so he brought it great coaches to work with his squad. Martinez isn't a great defensive coach, so should therefore bring in some assistance in that area. Is his No.2 strong enough to challenge him during the game and offer valuable input with regards to our game management? I would suggest not.

He's still a young manager, but he needs to develop his overall style if he's ever going to achieve something at Everton or beyond imo.

 

[neil999]

I think the frustration has largely been due to the disappointing results personally.

I don't think the off field issues are what's generated the frustration with the manager at all.

We can see the progress in terms of the style of play and when we're at our best we're great to watch, but unfortunately we've been sunk far too often by our porous defence and bewildering game management.

I think @The Esk covered it perfectly in his post. Martinez has got limitations in his skills set, and the truly great managers - take Ferguson for example - admit those areas of weakness and bring in the best they can find to work with them and compliment their areas of shortfall. Ferguson was never a great coach, so he brought it great coaches to work with his squad. Martinez isn't a great defensive coach, so should therefore bring in some assistance in that area. Is his No.2 strong enough to challenge him during the game and offer valuable input with regards to our game management? I would suggest not.

He's still a young manager, but he needs to develop his overall style if he's ever going to achieve something at Everton or beyond imo.

i think thats fair enough, maybe we could look at coaching team and even the number 2? he certainly hardly gets any mentions...actually, i dont even know his name lol but i always knew steve round, but that was prob all the slating he got for his headset..