Roberto Martinez discussion

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Underachieving? For years when Moyes was getting the 7th place trophy (with 'the great squad' bequeathed to Martinez, btw) it was always described as Everton punching above their weight. But because last season we slipped to midtable that was then somehow 'underachieving'. Which obviously doesn't make sense if a couple of places above was overachieving.

We'll see where we finish this season (probably top half finish when all is said and done). And when/if that happens the record will read for Martinez: 5th, 11th, 8th/9th.

And some people will say 'underachievement when in reality it's bang in line with the 'overachievment' of the past.

Madness has taken over this debate. It's just sheer hysteria now. There is no crisis surrounding this manager, only on forums and in the minds of the brain dead like Merson and Barton. The players are 100% on board with him; players are signing up for him and those here are extending their contracts because of him; and the owners of Everton FC will see things in a very very different light than the hair on fire brigade - you can bank on that.

We are pretty much where we always have been in recent years: still miles off the financial elite clubs and still requiring our major investor.

Time to settle down and accept that and admire in the meantime a football team that can actually play football, score lots of goals and entertain.

11th with that squad last season was under achieving. Simple as.

Moyes never had the luxury of a £28m striker btw Dave....

Where we are this season is under achieving as well, when compared to our peers - not the elite.

Come the end of the season we'll see where we finish, but as it stands we're not where we should be with the squad that he has at his disposal.

You need to separate the calls for his head, from the analysis of his overall performance. It's not as black and white as you wish to make it out to be.

 

[Carlito]

Let's just wait and see until the end of the season.

Bar the EL campaign, last season was crap.

So far this season we've played much better and it's frustrating we're not in a better position - and that is for a plethora of reasons and the manager is not responsible for all of them. But imo we've shown enough signs to show how good we can be - but the problem has been maintaining it - and that is as much down to the players as it is the manager.

As I said, anyway, the end of the season is the time to judge fully.

He's going to get until the end of the season, and probably beyond, regardless of what I think about his ability as a manager.

There have been flashes of quality, but that's the least you expect from an established team in the world's richest league.

I should stop posting in this thread because I often repeat myself, but I stand by the argument that the Premier League has become too competitive for Martinez now. Half of the division used to be filled with yard dogs on secondment from League One, whereas now even the worst sides are fielding £15m strikers and cherry picking gifted managers from abroad.

The days of being able to bamboozle limited teams with short passing are over, in this country at least. Everyone has good players now, and so every game requires the sort of meticulous, tailored planning that Martinez is clearly incapable of.

I'm sure he'll go on to have a reasonably good career elsewhere, but until the Sky bubble bursts I don't believe the Premier League is for him.

 

[neil999]

11th with that squad last season was under achieving. Simple as.

Moyes never had the luxury of a £28m striker btw Dave....

Where we are this season is under achieving as well, when compared to our peers - not the elite.

Come the end of the season we'll see where we finish, but as it stands we're not where we should be with the squad that he has at his disposal.

You need to separate the calls for his head, from the analysis of his overall performance. It's not as black and white as you wish to make it out to be.

the league has changed, look at the money west ham have been throwing around, its v difficult to compare like with like

 

[Carlito]

Underachieving? For years when Moyes was getting the 7th place trophy (with 'the great squad' bequeathed to Martinez, btw) it was always described as Everton punching above their weight. But because last season we slipped to midtable that was then somehow 'underachieving'. Which obviously doesn't make sense if a couple of places above was overachieving.

We'll see where we finish this season (probably top half finish when all is said and done). And when/if that happens the record will read for Martinez: 5th, 11th, 8th/9th.

And some people will say 'underachievement when in reality it's bang in line with the 'overachievment' of the past.

Madness has taken over this debate. It's just sheer hysteria now. There is no crisis surrounding this manager, only on forums and in the minds of the brain dead like Merson and Barton. The players are 100% on board with him; players are signing up for him and those here are extending their contracts because of him; and the owners of Everton FC will see things in a very very different light than the hair on fire brigade - you can bank on that.

We are pretty much where we always have been in recent years: still miles off the financial elite clubs and still requiring our major investor.

Time to settle down and accept that and admire in the meantime a football team that can actually play football, score lots of goals and entertain.

You're right about Everton being in around about the same position now as under Moyes. Outside chance of Europa League has been the norm for a while now.

First sign of progress for me would be knocking a decent side out of a cup competition.

 

[Lanolin]

I agree on the possession stat, but then Martinez gets slated for trying to play a possession game? Can't have it both ways...

And my post was to mainly point out that - bar the possession, which wasn't much different tbh, our gameplan was the same as Spurs - who got a dodgy penalty decision in their favour as well, come to think of it...

I also see your point about giving away leads, but with the form we were in i'm confident had we scored on Saturday we'd have gone on to hammer them. Can't be certain of that, obviously, but I was confident.

I'm really not the one trying to have it both ways.

Firstly, I can assure you that nobody would have been criticising Martinez for playing a possession based game had we won at City, just like nobody would have complained if we'd only left our own half once but scored and won 1-0. It's a results business, and it's totally disingenuous to suggest he'd have been criticised for going to the Etihad, hogging possession and getting us through.

My point was that the stats don't always reflect the way a game actually happens. As an example, most fans would believe we should have won at Bournemouth and Chelsea but look at the stats from those games and you'll find we had less possession, less shots and less shots on target in both games. It doesn't change my opinion that we were the better side in both games, but it shows that stats don't really paint a true picture of what you're seeing. Further to that, it should be noted that the stats you're presenting to suggest our game was just the same as the Spurs game actually show us having less possession, shots and shots on target than they did, so even if the stats argument was valid, these particular ones wouldn't really help your case.

Finally, with regard to the points you've made in a couple of other posts, why are we suggesting that Martinez cannot be blamed for players making mistakes, but can be given credit for them doing what they're paid for? What was it you said? 'Can't have it both ways...'

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

the league has changed, look at the money west ham have been throwing around, its v difficult to compare like with like

We've got the 2nd best striker in the division mate (behind only Aguero) when did we ever have a striker even remotely close to that level in the previous 2 decades?

 

[neil999]

We've got the 2nd best striker in the division mate (behind only Aguero) when did we ever have a striker even remotely close to that level in the previous 2 decades?

i dont disagree, just pointing out changes with other teams since moyes left

 

[davek]

11th with that squad last season was under achieving. Simple as.
Moyes never had the luxury of a £28m striker btw Dave....
Where we are this season is under achieving as well, when compared to our peers - not the elite.
Come the end of the season we'll see where we finish, but as it stands we're not where we should be with the squad that he has at his disposal. You need to separate the calls for his head, from the analysis of his overall performance. It's not as black and white as you wish to make it out to be.

Believe me, that's what I'm trying to do. I accept the imbalance in the team and it needs to be addressed (although one goal conceded in the last four games is encouraging and is being lost sight of here).

We have to also recognise though that Moyes was said to have 'had the best squad since the 80s' when he was here, and though the results he got were very acceptable, they were never troubling the elite.

What's depressing though is the hysteria surrounding all discussion of the team and manager. It's nonsensical. @magicjuan makes a very good point in the takeover thread that the furore over the on-field season has its roots in the frustration about what's going on or not going on off-field in terms of new owners/investment. That rings true, because on-field anyone with the ability to just pan back a bit and take an overview of the situation can see that in terms of overall momentum with squad strength and the type of open play we are capable of in almost all games now there is a lot of progress being made.

I'm staggered by the lack of calm assessment. Not all posters are falling into line with the hysteria, but significant amounts are and it's utterly ridiculous. There doesn't seem to be a sense of recent history or the ability to look at trajectory other than to react to one results affect on the table placings.

 

[Saint Domingo]

i dont disagree, just pointing out changes with other teams since moyes left

It's about relative money though isn't it and what that can buy you. Yes West Ham are throwing a bit around, so are Stoke and Newcastle and lots of teams including us (don't see many sides spending 30 mill on a striker and yes contrary to popular belief they are all selling players as well as buying). Compare that to Moyes having his best player sold every year and going numerous transfer windows without a first team purchase. Meanwhile teams like Villa Ciry Liverpool Spurs (the teams we expected to compete against) were throwing around huge amounts and they were huge relative amounts. The 20 mill Liverpool splashed on Torres is probably a relatively bigger fee than the 30 they spent on Benteke. How much for a young Torres in today's market?

I don't buy the argument that the league is better now than it was or that Moyes somehow had it easy. We are allowing Martinez to keep his good players and giving him funds for new ones. Moyes was selling good ones and getting cheap loans in. Regardless of money we have a better squad than West Ham Stoke Watford Southampton etc. We should be showing that.

 

[The Esk]

Can't say I am in to this fence sitting malarkey to be honest.

Despite our resource limitations we have a competitive, exciting and promising squad, our concerns lie not with our playing squad but with our manager.

2013/14 - tremendous, looked to be the real deal
2014/15 - concerns surfaced but benefit of the doubt given
2015/16 - the same concerns apparent despite extra resources and a more experienced squad and a more opportune environment

He's a nice guy, talented in several areas but his weaknesses suggest in business parlance he'll never be a winning CEO. He has the ability and talent to be part of a winning team but not as leader, more and more I see him as Director of football development (not sure such a position exists) nurturing young talent and developing individuals rather than a team.

I think he'd do an amazing job at bringing individuals to the point where they maximise their potential but we need a real tactical expert to make us a team greater than the sum of our parts.

I don't know how anyone with any sense of history can be drawn into this vortex of hysteria surrounding the manager. Where we are right now is not an unusual place for us to be. Moyes had us here on a number of occasions and it was never a matter of great concern (what sort of profile would you have given him, btw?).

Martinez "will never be a winning CEO" - his CV suggests otherwise. As for him not being a leader, I'm staggered by that assertion. It takes a pair of massive gonads to take a football club by the scruff of the neck, as he did down at Swansea, and reconstruct that club from something it was into something else entirely. His time there set in motion a process that they still adhere to now as a PL outfit of a number of years standing. That takes great leadership qualities to take all those people with you, at such a very young age too. He's had to do the exact same thing here at Everton. He's transformed this club, as with Swansea, from one type of playing style to another - casting off a culture that had been in place for a generation in the space of a couple of seasons. Maybe the speed that's been done at has been disorientating for players and fans and perhaps that's contributed to the imbalance we see in the team right now, but to suggest a lack of leadership makes little sense to me.

I've brought your response in here to save cluttering up the "on the fence" thread.

I stand by what I said and the context in which I made the claim of him not being a leader. Sure he has leadership abilities but not the leadership abilities to regularly win trophies at Everton given the level of competition we face. Being able to run a corner shop does not make you necessarily the best candidate for running Marks and Spencer.

So rather than throw him out or most likely hope he acquires skills so far not evident in his managerial career, any sensible organisation would analyse his skill sets and bring in support where there are weaknesses. He has two weaknesses as far as I am concerned both of which are hard to refute.

Firstly defensively - it is very apparent that he places little emphasis or importance on this aspect of the game, so why not bring in a defensive coach? There's no logical reason why we couldn't set up better defensively without putting constraints on our attacking abilities - in fact a better drilled back four would reduce the necessity for playing two defensive midfielders every game.

Secondly and perhaps more significantly is his lack of tactical awareness, both in setting up prior to a game but also reacting to changing conditions during a game be they the scoreline or a tactical change by the opposition.

So let's play to his strengths - he's particularly good at developing young talent there's no question about that, he seems very able in spotting players so again there's something we should continue to use and develop.

To conclude, he's not got the full suite of talents to allow him to go head to head with the very best managerial talents in the world, that's not a criticism (nor a vortex of hysteria lol). He's a number of talents that we should continue to utilise but he needs support. There's no rule in football that says we have one manager, the reality is that we have a coaching team already - we need to add to that with senior appointments. to make the most of what Martinez offers, otherwise we will continue to fall short with the inevitable consequences for all concerned.

 

[Carlito]

We've got the 2nd best striker in the division mate (behind only Aguero) when did we ever have a striker even remotely close to that level in the previous 2 decades?

I wouldn't base my expectations for a good season solely on Lukaku. He's a good goalscorer, but hardly the Suarez/Bale/Ronaldo-type match-winner that many make him out to be.

 

[COYBL25]

I've brought your response in here to save cluttering up the "on the fence" thread.

I stand by what I said and the context in which I made the claim of him not being a leader. Sure he has leadership abilities but not the leadership abilities to regularly win trophies at Everton given the level of competition we face. Being able to run a corner shop does not make you necessarily the best candidate for running Marks and Spencer.

So rather than throw him out or most likely hope he acquires skills so far not evident in his managerial career, any sensible organisation would analyse his skill sets and bring in support where there are weaknesses. He has two weaknesses as far as I am concerned both of which are hard to refute.

Firstly defensively - it is very apparent that he places little emphasis or importance on this aspect of the game, so why not bring in a defensive coach? There's no logical reason why we couldn't set up better defensively without putting constraints on our attacking abilities - in fact a better drilled back four would reduce the necessity for playing two defensive midfielders every game.

Secondly and perhaps more significantly is his lack of tactical awareness, both in setting up prior to a game but also reacting to changing conditions during a game be they the scoreline or a tactical change by the opposition.

So let's play to his strengths - he's particularly good at developing young talent there's no question about that, he seems very able in spotting players so again there's something we should continue to use and develop.

To conclude, he's not got the full suite of talents to allow him to go head to head with the very best managerial talents in the world, that's not a criticism (nor a vortex of hysteria lol). He's a number of talents that we should continue to utilise but he needs support. There's no rule in football that says we have one manager, the reality is that we have a coaching team already - we need to add to that with senior appointments. to make the most of what Martinez offers, otherwise we will continue to fall short with the inevitable consequences for all concerned.

I would also add stubbornness / pig headeness / arrogance or whatever you want call it to that too mate.

The defensive problems have been obvious since last season yet he still carries on regardless with his " they score one, we score two philosophy etc ".

A good manager of anything whether football or running an office needs a team around him to support him and also to delegate responsibility too. His failure to address the defensive problems and idly wave them away as being not important is astounding.

His failure to accept this and address this will I feel ultimately be his downfall .

I'm on the fence by the way and he's till the end of season as far as I 'm concerned .

 

[willo30]

Underachieving? For years when Moyes was getting the 7th place trophy (with 'the great squad' bequeathed to Martinez, btw) it was always described as Everton punching above their weight. But because last season we slipped to midtable that was then somehow 'underachieving'. Which obviously doesn't make sense if a couple of places above was overachieving.

We'll see where we finish this season (probably top half finish when all is said and done). And when/if that happens the record will read for Martinez: 5th, 11th, 8th/9th.

And some people will say 'underachievement when in reality it's bang in line with the 'overachievment' of the past.

Madness has taken over this debate. It's just sheer hysteria now. There is no crisis surrounding this manager, only on forums and in the minds of the brain dead like Merson and Barton. The players are 100% on board with him; players are signing up for him and those here are extending their contracts because of him; and the owners of Everton FC will see things in a very very different light than the hair on fire brigade - you can bank on that.

We are pretty much where we always have been in recent years: still miles off the financial elite clubs and still requiring our major investor.

Time to settle down and accept that and admire in the meantime a football team that can actually play football, score lots of goals and entertain.

But what if it reads
Martinez: 5th, 11th, 11th.

I don't think it's unfair to say we will finish 11th again when this is where we are now. All this suggesting we can move up the table easily with a couple of wins doesn't work. 3 games ago people were saying we were only 2 wins off 7th. Well guess what, we got them 2 wins but we are in 11th.

I'll leave predicting the outcome of this season as we could finish anywhere between 7th - 13th. I will stick to my original expectations of this season though which is minimum 60 points. 1 point or more less then he needs to go in my opinion.

 

[davek]

I've brought your response in here to save cluttering up the "on the fence" thread.

I stand by what I said and the context in which I made the claim of him not being a leader. Sure he has leadership abilities but not the leadership abilities to regularly win trophies at Everton given the level of competition we face. Being able to run a corner shop does not make you necessarily the best candidate for running Marks and Spencer.

So rather than throw him out or most likely hope he acquires skills so far not evident in his managerial career, any sensible organisation would analyse his skill sets and bring in support where there are weaknesses. He has two weaknesses as far as I am concerned both of which are hard to refute.

Firstly defensively - it is very apparent that he places little emphasis or importance on this aspect of the game, so why not bring in a defensive coach? There's no logical reason why we couldn't set up better defensively without putting constraints on our attacking abilities - in fact a better drilled back four would reduce the necessity for playing two defensive midfielders every game.

Secondly and perhaps more significantly is his lack of tactical awareness, both in setting up prior to a game but also reacting to changing conditions during a game be they the scoreline or a tactical change by the opposition.

So let's play to his strengths - he's particularly good at developing young talent there's no question about that, he seems very able in spotting players so again there's something we should continue to use and develop.

To conclude, he's not got the full suite of talents to allow him to go head to head with the very best managerial talents in the world, that's not a criticism (nor a vortex of hysteria lol). He's a number of talents that we should continue to utilise but he needs support. There's no rule in football that says we have one manager, the reality is that we have a coaching team already - we need to add to that with senior appointments. to make the most of what Martinez offers, otherwise we will continue to fall short with the inevitable consequences for all concerned.

This is football, not an ordinary business. The culture even now is one where the manager wants and needs to be hands on and responsible for all aspects of the club. Your solution is to expect all that to be overthrown, and it's not happening in a hurry. DoF are viewed with suspicion and resisted by nearly all managers; suggestions of the parachuting in of defensive coaches = a sign of weakness (I remember the same being said of Moyes that he should have an older head in the dugout with him - preposterous to think that he'd ever have accepted that and the same goes for all managers in the British game). We have 8 clean sheets in the PL, which puts us above average for the division. We concede goals when we do concede in volume. That's the issue: that when focus goes, it really goes. It's not that the defence cant defend.

The view that he is tactically limited rings hollow. You say the initial set up is a problem for him. That's the polar opposite of what's been happening. We've been taking teams on and getting our noses in front all season. The problem hasn't been setting up, it's hanging onto leads when we have them. In that respect in-game decision making is hit and miss this season. Many will point to the losses in the final moments of games (or draws from the jaws of victory) and say he cant see what's happening and doesn't react in time. On many occasions though there has been mitigating circumstances - such as the playing of bundles of minutes time added on that no one could see coming from anywhere and the players on the pitch have clocked off and lost focus under the intensity. Either that or there's a ref decision that compounds it all as with the late Terry equaliser at Chelsea. That's not to ignore the amount of unnecessary goals conceded and points lost. It's a very real problem as he himself acknowledges.

"To conclude, he's not got the full suite of talents to allow him to go head to head with the very best managerial talents in the world."

Well, not being Jose Mourinho is a criticism that no one can level at an Everton manager. Everton get the manager they are capable of attracting. IMO, we have a very good one who's transformed the playing culture of the club and has hit certain targets already while needing to do better in other areas. If any one fancies taking a chance on the next new flavour to achieve what he's done and then some then they take that step with the knowledge that it is a massive gamble for very little realistic profit.

 

[davek]

But what if it reads
Martinez: 5th, 11th, 11th.

I don't think it's unfair to say we will finish 11th again when this is where we are now. All this suggesting we can move up the table easily with a couple of wins doesn't work. 3 games ago people were saying we were only 2 wins off 7th. Well guess what, we got them 2 wins but we are in 11th.

I'll leave predicting the outcome of this season as we could finish anywhere between 7th - 13th. I will stick to my original expectations of this season though which is minimum 60 points. 1 point or more less then he needs to go in my opinion.

I tell you what mate: even that sequence - if you'd have offered that to fans of this club a few seasons ago when Moyes said he was leaving and they were panicking over 'spiralling out of control', many would have snatched your hand off for that type of form as long as the footy became more watchable.

Martinez maybe came in and put down a first season marker that's raised expectations.