Roberto Martinez discussion

[Cork Evertonian]

We've won 4 games in 10 months at home. Enough with the excuses...

If only three points were handed out for iff's and but's and could have's and should have's.As far as im concerned we should have been challenging for a champions league spot this season.As opposed to sitting in 11th.That suggests to me that we have a manager who is not capable of maximizing his resources.

 

[Carlito]

No not at all.

I think we were more than capable of beating City (like we proved in the first leg), but away from home it was always going to be difficult.

They pushed us back due to a combination of having extremely good attacking players, being at home, and we did perhaps sit too deep - but we were however holding our own until that second goal went in (which ultimately changed the game completely, which is why it's such a sucker punch in that instance that the ref has got it so wrong - just like against Chelsea).

Anyway, I don't think our performance was that bad and this argument that 'we only had to keep a clean sheet' is just ridiculous. Rarely do sides keep a clean sheet away at Manchester City.

Btw, I posted the stats for the semi-final second leg on this thread earlier.

As our display at City has been described as 'pitiful', here are the stats for that game, compared with the one on Sunday that Spurs won...

Man City v Tottenham
Possession
City 46%
Spurs 54%

Shots
City 19
Spurs 6

Shots on Target
City 4
Spurs 3

Corners
City 7
Spurs 1

Fouls
City 12
Spurs 17

Man City v Everton
Possession
City 55%
Everton 45%

Shots
City 19
Everton 4

Shots on Target
City 5
Everton 2

Corners
City 9
Everton 2

These individual examples would stand up very well if it wasn't getting on for two years of poor form now.

I thought we were getting better than what we had when Martinez came in, but it's the same crap by and large. I just hope we don't suffer him as long as we did his predecessor.

 

[willo30]

During the Jan transfer window some on here were creaming themselves over Stoke and Newcastle and how much 'ambition' they were showing...

Of course it's really disappointing that we couldn't beat the two you mentioned, but that doesn't take away from the games we have won. We've also beaten Chelsea and hammered a very good Southampton side, for example.

If not for an in-correct decision in the last minute we would have done the double over Chelsea as well. We've got two draws against Spurs which now look like great results - and considering that we finished the home game very much on the front foot I was happy with that.

Chelsea were poor and Southampton had a slow start to the season were they had one win in six. If you look at our wins then you will see probably only WBA were in any sort of form with 2 wins in 6. Maybe just a coincidence but it's there to see.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Chelsea were poor and Southampton had a slow start to the season were they had one win in six. If you look at our wins then you will see probably only WBA were in any sort of form with 2 wins in 6. Maybe just a coincidence but it's there to see.

Wins are wins, they all count. In just the same way that 'nearly wins' 'non losses' and 'robbed by refs' 'entertaining draws' ' beaten by kick and rush hoofball' also don't count as wins.

 

[Lanolin]

No not at all.

I think we were more than capable of beating City (like we proved in the first leg), but away from home it was always going to be difficult.

They pushed us back due to a combination of having extremely good attacking players, being at home, and we did perhaps sit too deep - but we were however holding our own until that second goal went in (which ultimately changed the game completely, which is why it's such a sucker punch in that instance that the ref has got it so wrong - just like against Chelsea).

Anyway, I don't think our performance was that bad and this argument that 'we only had to keep a clean sheet' is just ridiculous. Rarely do sides keep a clean sheet away at Manchester City.

Btw, I posted the stats for the semi-final second leg on this thread earlier.

As our display at City has been described as 'pitiful', here are the stats for that game, compared with the one on Sunday that Spurs won...

Man City v Tottenham
Possession
City 46%
Spurs 54%

Shots
City 19
Spurs 6

Shots on Target
City 4
Spurs 3

Corners
City 7
Spurs 1

Fouls
City 12
Spurs 17

Man City v Everton
Possession
City 55%
Everton 45%

Shots
City 19
Everton 4

Shots on Target
City 5
Everton 2

Corners
City 9
Everton 2

Ah come on now, that's just a bunch of stats which doesn't actually show anything of interest. One enormous difference is that Spurs had the majority of possession, highlighting that they controlled long periods of the game, something we struggled to do. They retreated having gone 1-0 up, but when they needed to go again they did, and scored again. We had considerably less possession, meaning the ball kept coming back at us and we were on the ropes for a fair portion, and when we conceded we totally crumbled. The number of shots etc was completely irrelevant, it was the way the game panned out on the pitch which was the issue (although i would never have called it pitiful in fairness).

The stats argument doesn't work against West Brom for the same reason, we had loads of possession and shots because they let us. There's nothing to say that had we equalised the game wouldn't have been taken away from us again when they changed their approach. Think of Leicester, Stoke, Swansea, Watford at home this season. All games where we were behind, all games where we got ourselves back level after looking likely to do so for some time, all games where we then conceded again when the other team realised their lead wasn't going to be enough.

 

[hullefc]

Sometimes I wonder about that.

You would not read so much hatred and bile directed at the Everton manager, Everton fans, the Everton chairman and Everton whipping boy players on the forums of other teams.

Including the RS.

If someone had told you twenty years ago there would come a day in the very near future when, from the comfort of your own home and on a 24/7 basis, you would be able to magically tap into a piece of apparatus which allowed you to commune with people from all round the world about the subject dearest to your heart (besides your family) you would have been delighted at the thoughts of endless hours chatting about the club and owt connected to it in a civil, positive fashion.

Instead, half the time it is faction fighting and displays of self loathing which sees some people take the time to dissect the few victories we have had this season and point out favourable refereeing decisions we have had and opposition players missing sitters which would have resulted in us losing even the games we have won

I mean you wouldn't see folk on RAWK or Red Cafe concerning themselves with blatant penalties which were not awarded against them.

Nor would they be fuming against the manager after an incident like the Chelsea offside goal or the City goal which came from a cross when the ball had crossed the line.

No sir/ma'am......they would be sticking pins in little voodoo doll effigies of the ref or linesman at fault

Well said throughout this post. The highlighted bit - can I still fume at Clive Thomas, Poll, Clattenberg, Atkinson -Rodwell sending off, blowing up against Manu when 3-3 and Jags on the attack, the ball over the line against City and Collina or should I let it go and just fume at Gordon Lee, walter Smith, Moyes and Martinez?

 

[hullefc]

Mostly in response to the petulance and poor quality of response on here, I always find myself instinctively supporting Martinez more than I do during the actual games. Regarding the "Martinez out!!!" crowd, to paraphrase, "it's not the band I hate, it's their fans." In any case, though there are plenty of reasons to suggest being patient for another year could be wise, it's pointless to get rid of him before the summer, at the very least.

And then what would happen? I understand there's a whole generation conditioned by the rote absorption of half-assed click-bait punditry cliches to project the entirety of their impotent wrath solely on the manager, but it doesn't follow that everything will magically improve just by replacing your angst avatar. In addition to jeopardizing all the progress we've demonstrably made - transfers, strong attacking, youth development, 72 pts etc. - and risking the harmony of a squad that's shown no sign of doubting the manager despite frustrating results and a home crowd that shrieks at the best young players in a generation for making the mistakes that it takes to learn and improve, there's the real possibility that a new manager, imposing a new system, and buying and ditching players, will make things much worse.

We all complained, despite a solid defensive core that was rarely acknowledged, about hoof-ball, launching endless crosses, and lacking a striker under Moyes; now we have arguably the best young striker in the game, play exciting attacking football, control the ball, and score as often as any side in the country - so much so that the lazier/more impetuous among us rewrite Moyes, commie-style, as no different than Pulis. But now the defensive core is obviously weaker. Replacing the manager only changes the problems rather than guaranteeing a solution. And if you do it too often, you get stuck with chaos, player apathy, and emergency spending on mediocre players just to stay in the division. If you're going to convince us that everything will magically get better, at least try to grapple with the complexities involved.

But instead, it's like listening to Texans frothing about Obama. One-track minds are not persuasive minds. Let's see if we can't at least do better on here than "Government off my Medicaid/RAWK."

Anyhow, I usually know better than to get involved in these things.

Well don't, you make too much sense and have shown great character holding fire with your opinion.

 

[BlueToff]

We've won 4 games in 10 months at home. Enough with the excuses...

It's not an excuse. I have in now way said that our home form has been up to par.

Thankfully our form on the road is much better and because of that we're still in with a very good shout of top seven.

What my point is that in the games we haven't won (home or away) we have still created enough chances to have done so. To me that indicates the style - implemented by the manager - is working.

It's down to the players to finish those chances they have created and, for whatever reason, haven't done that in certain games.

So, imo, it can't all be down to RM, as he isn't the one who misses those chances, he also isn't the one who switched off at the back post allowing Rondon to head in on Saturday, or the one who made Howard give away that needless penalty vs Swansea.

Martinez has made mistakes, but imo there'e been enough signs - especially since the turn of the year - that he is adapting and learning those lessons.

 

[BlueToff]

Ah come on now, that's just a bunch of stats which doesn't actually show anything of interest. One enormous difference is that Spurs had the majority of possession, highlighting that they controlled long periods of the game, something we struggled to do. They retreated having gone 1-0 up, but when they needed to go again they did, and scored again. We had considerably less possession, meaning the ball kept coming back at us and we were on the ropes for a fair portion, and when we conceded we totally crumbled. The number of shots etc was completely irrelevant, it was the way the game panned out on the pitch which was the issue (although i would never have called it pitiful in fairness).

The stats argument doesn't work against West Brom for the same reason, we had loads of possession and shots because they let us. There's nothing to say that had we equalised the game wouldn't have been taken away from us again when they changed their approach. Think of Leicester, Stoke, Swansea, Watford at home this season. All games where we were behind, all games where we got ourselves back level after looking likely to do so for some time, all games where we then conceded again when the other team realised their lead wasn't going to be enough.

I agree on the possession stat, but then Martinez gets slated for trying to play a possession game? Can't have it both ways...

And my post was to mainly point out that - bar the possession, which wasn't much different tbh, our gameplan was the same as Spurs - who got a dodgy penalty decision in their favour as well, come to think of it...

I also see your point about giving away leads, but with the form we were in i'm confident had we scored on Saturday we'd have gone on to hammer them. Can't be certain of that, obviously, but I was confident.

 

[BlueToff]

Chelsea were poor and Southampton had a slow start to the season were they had one win in six. If you look at our wins then you will see probably only WBA were in any sort of form with 2 wins in 6. Maybe just a coincidence but it's there to see.

As @Saint Domingo said below a win is a win. You can't just say because a team is out of form it isn't a good win. Chelsea are still a good team and we hadn't beaten Southampton away in donkey's years - plus they were full of confidence at that point.

As @Saint Domingo also said, a defeat is also a defeat - but sometimes when things go against you that clearly effect the result then it is not an excuse to claim that it was out of the manager's control. It's a fact.

 

[BlueToff]

These individual examples would stand up very well if it wasn't getting on for two years of poor form now.

I thought we were getting better than what we had when Martinez came in, but it's the same crap by and large. I just hope we don't suffer him as long as we did his predecessor.

Let's just wait and see until the end of the season.

Bar the EL campaign, last season was crap.

So far this season we've played much better and it's frustrating we're not in a better position - and that is for a plethora of reasons and the manager is not responsible for all of them. But imo we've shown enough signs to show how good we can be - but the problem has been maintaining it - and that is as much down to the players as it is the manager.

As I said, anyway, the end of the season is the time to judge fully.

 

[Cork Evertonian]

As @Saint Domingo said below a win is a win. You can't just say because a team is out of form it isn't a good win. Chelsea are still a good team and we hadn't beaten Southampton away in donkey's years - plus they were full of confidence at that point.

As @Saint Domingo also said, a defeat is also a defeat - but sometimes when things go against you that clearly effect the result then it is not an excuse to claim that it was out of the manager's control. It's a fact.

Here's another fact for you.For two seasons in a row we are underachieving in the league under the current regime.We have only won 4 games at Goodison this season.At the end of the day the buck stops with the manager.When a company is underperfoming and not meeting it's sales and profit targets.Do you really think a load of could have and should have excuses will cut it when the manager reports to the senior directors of the company for the end of year review?

 

[Saint Domingo]

As @Saint Domingo said below a win is a win. You can't just say because a team is out of form it isn't a good win. Chelsea are still a good team and we hadn't beaten Southampton away in donkey's years - plus they were full of confidence at that point.

As @Saint Domingo also said, a defeat is also a defeat - but sometimes when things go against you that clearly effect the result then it is not an excuse to claim that it was out of the manager's control. It's a fact.

Agreed but by this same logic you can't have it both ways. We've also picked up points that have been 'out of the managers control'. Away at City blatant pen turned down in our favour, Spurs away got battered but Kane forgot where the goal was, Newcastle away Mitrovic misses two on a plate then Cleverley hits a freak header in. It works both ways, which is why over the course of 38 games it balances itself out. There will be no excuses about referees bad luck or players missing chances that will wash come the end of the season.

 

[Cork Evertonian]

It's not an excuse. I have in now way said that our home form has been up to par.

Thankfully our form on the road is much better and because of that we're still in with a very good shout of top seven.

What my point is that in the games we haven't won (home or away) we have still created enough chances to have done so. To me that indicates the style - implemented by the manager - is working.

It's down to the players to finish those chances they have created and, for whatever reason, haven't done that in certain games.

So, imo, it can't all be down to RM, as he isn't the one who misses those chances, he also isn't the one who switched off at the back post allowing Rondon to head in on Saturday, or the one who made Howard give away that needless penalty vs Swansea.

Martinez has made mistakes, but imo there'e been enough signs - especially since the turn of the year - that he is adapting and learning those lessons.

Were in with a very good shout of the top 7.So that's what's good enough for Everton now is it 7th place?

 

[davek]

Here's another fact for you.For two seasons in a row we are underachieving in the league under the current regime.We have only won 4 games at Goodison this season.At the end of the day the buck stops with the manager.When a company is underperfoming and not meeting it's sales and profit targets.Do you really think a load of could have and should have excuses will cut it when the manager reports to the senior directors of the company for the end of year review?

Underachieving? For years when Moyes was getting the 7th place trophy (with 'the great squad' bequeathed to Martinez, btw) it was always described as Everton punching above their weight. But because last season we slipped to midtable that was then somehow 'underachieving'. Which obviously doesn't make sense if a couple of places above was overachieving.

We'll see where we finish this season (probably top half finish when all is said and done). And when/if that happens the record will read for Martinez: 5th, 11th, 8th/9th.

And some people will say 'underachievement when in reality it's bang in line with the 'overachievment' of the past.

Madness has taken over this debate. It's just sheer hysteria now. There is no crisis surrounding this manager, only on forums and in the minds of the brain dead like Merson and Barton. The players are 100% on board with him; players are signing up for him and those here are extending their contracts because of him; and the owners of Everton FC will see things in a very very different light than the hair on fire brigade - you can bank on that.

We are pretty much where we always have been in recent years: still miles off the financial elite clubs and still requiring our major investor.

Time to settle down and accept that and admire in the meantime a football team that can actually play football, score lots of goals and entertain.