Two steps forward

[mkrudden]

I guess that is the beauty of football, people can have no idea of what they're watching but still enjoy a game! I guess that's when you start blaming referees, missed chances, Tony Pulis etc.

They can concede the space out wide all they want but once you start throwing in balls or making runs in to the area from good wide positions they're going to have to defend that area of the pitch, which in turn opens up space elsewhere. It's fairly basic stuff. If you concentrate all of your play through the middle it's fairly easy to defend against. Listen to any manager talk about breaking sides down and they all mention width.
For that matter look at any top side and they all have quality in wide areas and use it to stretch sides and create space.

You can't create space with subtle passes etc. if you haven't created any space for them beforehand.

Agree to disagree mate.
I don't think the likes of Chelsea and City swat aside WBA because they stretch the play and start throwing balls in the box. I think they have Silva, Fabregas, Toure, Dr Bruyne, Willian, Hazard, Oscar etc who can all play the ball through the eye of a needle and have strikers who are a bit more deft than ours.

As you say though, different people see different things. And plus, I have been wrong many, many times before!

 

[Lanolin]

Couldn't disagree more.

We did not need width. WBA are set up to concede width. They don't care how much of the ball you have out wide. They don't care if your winger beats their full back.

They turn games into congested messes. You cannot "draw them out" with width. You need to put strikers in the box and players behind them who can find them with subtle passes. You need link up play, one twos and to get shots off like Barkley did first half.

Lennon should have done better at times.
Cleverley should have done better at times.
Same with Barkley.
Same with Kone when he came on.

The strategy was fine. We got Pulis'd. Move on.

Ok, I don't agree but I understand your logic.

Surely though, if you want players who can pick a subtle pass, you use osman, pienaar, deulofeu in the hole? You don't take cleverley off.

You're talking as if Kone played as an out and out striker but he didn't, he spent most of his time being asked to play wide, which according to you is the last thing we needed. If your tactical idea is right, roberto made an even bigger mess of it than if mine was.

 

[mkrudden]

Ok, I don't agree but I understand your logic.

Surely though, if you want players who can pick a subtle pass, you use osman, pienaar, deulofeu in the hole? You don't take cleverley off.

You're talking as if Kone played as an out and out striker but he didn't, he spent most of his time being asked to play wide, which according to you is the last thing we needed. If your tactical idea is right, roberto made an even bigger mess of it than if mine was.

If it was me mate, id have done the Cleverly off, Kone on sub as well as Pienaar and Baines on for McCarthy and Oviedo.

I think Martinez did make a mess of it. Why bring off Lennon and bring on a like for like? Why keep 2 holding midfielders on with WBA camped in their own half? Why have Pienaar, our chief lock unpicker on the bench?

Make no mistake, I couldn't understand the subs apart from the Kone one. We needed another striker to mix it up in there.

He didn't play left wing. If anything Barkley spent most of the second half out there.

 

[Lanolin]

If it was me mate, id have done the Cleverly off, Kone on sub as well as Pienaar and Baines on for McCarthy and Oviedo.

I think Martinez did make a mess of it. Why bring off Lennon and bring on a like for like? Why keep 2 holding midfielders on with WBA camped in their own half? Why have Pienaar, our chief lock unpicker on the bench?

Make no mistake, I couldn't understand the subs apart from the Kone one. We needed another striker to mix it up in there.

He didn't play left wing. If anything Barkley spent most of the second half out there.

My own eyes (and his official Everton heat map) tell me you are wrong.

http://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com...s-roberto-martinez-substitutions-aaron-lennon

 

[mkrudden]

My own eyes (and his official Everton heat map) tell me you are wrong.

http://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com...s-roberto-martinez-substitutions-aaron-lennon

Read it again mate.

It even says "kone drifted in, to a striker position".

He was not playing left wing.

 

[Lanolin]

Read it again mate.

It even says "kone drifted in, to a striker position".

He was not playing left wing.

Good lord. I know he drifted in - that's the whole point of what i'm saying. But guess what? He drifted in from a wide position. You know, where he was actually playing. My point was that we needed genuine width, and instead brought somebody on to play out wide who kept drifting infield to the position he's used to playing in, but was not supposed to be playing in in this particular game.

You said 'You need to put strikers in the box'. I'm saying, look at his heat and touch map. It shows we didn't get strikers in the box, ergo your defence of Roberto's tactical masterstroke is flawed. He spent the majority of his time on the left, where he often ran infield with the ball. I don't think anybody else thinks he played as a striker, and the article you're telling me to read again makes two mentions of him playing left midfield.

 

[mkrudden]

Good lord. I know he drifted in - that's the whole point of what i'm saying. But guess what? He drifted in from a wide position. You know, where he was actually playing. My point was that we needed genuine width, and instead brought somebody on to play out wide who kept drifting infield to the position he's used to playing in, but was not supposed to be playing in in this particular game.

You said 'You need to put strikers in the box'. I'm saying, look at his heat and touch map. It shows we didn't get strikers in the box, ergo your defence of Roberto's tactical masterstroke is flawed. He spent the majority of his time on the left, where he often ran infield with the ball. I don't think anybody else thinks he played as a striker, and the article you're telling me to read again makes two mentions of him playing left midfield.

Hi mate.
Firstly, relax.
Second, when I think of a left winger, I think of someone hugging the touchline and getting crosses in. The way Kone played was like a wide striker, always drifting in, getting involved in the link up and trying to unsettle the concentration of the two CBs who were fixed on Lukaku rendering him pretty useless. We've seen this tactic as a wide striker to good effect this season.
You may think im splitting hairs. I don't mean to. You may think that I am trying to blindly bamboozle a way into applauding Martinez. I'm not.

I am simply saying that the THEORY of the Kone substitution was a sound one in that his introduction SHOULD have seen better link up between him and Lukaku and hopefully freeing the latter up.

Kone was poor when he came on. He failed to disrupt those 4 CBs and create space for Lukaku and others. I am certain Martinez didn't say to him "get in there, play in front of WBA, lose ball a few times and slow play down". Neither did he say "hang out wide and be a winger". The starting position may have be a touch wide rather than a conventional CF.

But you're right. It didn't work. Martinez got it wrong in the sense his clearly evident plan didn't work. I am just saying that it was pretty clear what he intended and it was a good one to make without the benefit of hindsight.

 

[Lanolin]

Hi mate.
Firstly, relax.
Second, when I think of a left winger, I think of someone hugging the touchline and getting crosses in. The way Kone played was like a wide striker, always drifting in, getting involved in the link up and trying to unsettle the concentration of the two CBs who were fixed on Lukaku rendering him pretty useless. We've seen this tactic as a wide striker to good effect this season.
You may think im splitting hairs. I don't mean to. You may think that I am trying to blindly bamboozle a way into applauding Martinez. I'm not.

I am simply saying that the THEORY of the Kone substitution was a sound one in that his introduction SHOULD have seen better link up between him and Lukaku and hopefully freeing the latter up.

Kone was poor when he came on. He failed to disrupt those 4 CBs and create space for Lukaku and others. I am certain Martinez didn't say to him "get in there, play in front of WBA, lose ball a few times and slow play down". Neither did he say "hang out wide and be a winger". The starting position may have be a touch wide rather than a conventional CF.

But you're right. It didn't work. Martinez got it wrong in the sense his clearly evident plan didn't work. I am just saying that it was pretty clear what he intended and it was a good one to make without the benefit of hindsight.

I am relaxed mate, I just thought it was going to be one of those banging your head against brick wall situations where no matter what evidence is presented, somebody obstinately refuses to accept it. Thankfully that's not what you're doing, so it's ok.

In fairness, i never said he played left wing, that was the term you used. I said he didn't play as an out and out striker and spent most of his time wide. You actually agree with me and maybe just misunderstood what i'd posted. The point being, he didn't get into the box and link with Lukaku. The link i posted shows it, he just sort of hovered around as a quasi-wide player not really offering either width or support to the striker. Had we done what you mentioned (played two up top and given the centre halves something else to think about) i might have been inclined to agree with you that it was a decent tactic, but whether he was supposed to or not, he didn't get around Lukaku or cause problems for their centre backs.

 

[mkrudden]

I am relaxed mate, I just thought it was going to be one of those banging your head against brick wall situations where no matter what evidence is presented, somebody obstinately refuses to accept it. Thankfully that's not what you're doing, so it's ok.

In fairness, i never said he played left wing, that was the term you used. I said he didn't play as an out and out striker and spent most of his time wide. You actually agree with me and maybe just misunderstood what i'd posted. The point being, he didn't get into the box and link with Lukaku. The link i posted shows it, he just sort of hovered around as a quasi-wide player not really offering either width or support to the striker. Had we done what you mentioned (played two up top and given the centre halves something else to think about) i might have been inclined to agree with you that it was a decent tactic, but whether he was supposed to or not, he didn't get around Lukaku or cause problems for their centre backs.

To be fair to you mate (and criticise myself) I do tend to skim read during the day when I should be working.

But no, I definitely agree that it didn't work. I just think it was an obvious substitution to make in that circumstance.

 

[BlueToff]

To be fair to you mate (and criticise myself) I do tend to skim read during the day when I should be working.

But no, I definitely agree that it didn't work. I just think it was an obvious substitution to make in that circumstance.

Also the point that I had been trying to make. Summed it up well in your previous post.

I don't think any of RM's subs were illogical, they just didn't work out, unfortunatley.

 

[Arteta2391]

How long till Phil Neville becomes our manager?

 

[bring the ghost on]

it was pretty clear what he intended and it was a good one to make without the benefit of hindsight.

Bringing Kone on is never a good plan, hindsight only makes it that bit more tragic.

 

[COYBL25]

Bringing Kone on is never a good plan, hindsight only makes it that bit more tragic.

Kone putting an Everton kit on is never a good plan either

 

[bring the ghost on]

How long till Phil Neville becomes our manager?

 

[BlueToff]

Bringing Kone on is never a good plan, hindsight only makes it that bit more tragic.

It has worked to break down the same side this season (away from home) and it does usually help Rom pick up more space.

As it turns out Kone came on and put in possibly his worst display of the season.

I didn't particularly agree with the change as, like many others think, Kev (although personally feel Pienaar would have been a good option), seemed the better choice.

But I could see the logic in it and what RM was trying to achieve.