Roberto Martinez discussion

[WarringtonBlue]

Moyes won nothing but he made Everton becoming the best of the rest in the PL during his regime.

He did and was a good manager, what we needed at the time. We used to also start awfully under him. Both he and martinez used to get all their points in march

 

[toffeejack]

Interesting

Who could we say has developed and improved?

Howard - no
Coleman - no
Baines - No
Stones - Yes
Funes Mori - can't get much worse
Barry - no
McCarthy - Yes
Barkley - Yes
Kone - no
Lukaku - yes
Mirallas - no
Del - yes
Osman - no
Hibbert - Weirdly, yes
Gibson - No
Galloway - yes
Browning - yes
Cleverley - as average as the day he arrived

For me, that's a very, very mixed track record of developing players

to be fair, most of the ones with a no next to them are ones passing their 30's and bound to decline barring coleman, who did have his best season in martinez' first season. The rest have been injured a lot and Barry hasn't improved or declined, which is acceptable for someone in his mid 30's.

 

[Smodger]

There's one thing with moyes his team didn't half defend for the man at 1 nil people would throw there body's on the line yet to see it for Martinez.

 

[davek]

Sorry Dave but that's bollocks

We played some lovely football at times under Moyes. He just didn't have the confidence to do it every week. The home win over Southampton in his last season saw us play some beautiful stuff

I hear this a lot as an apology for Moyes' tired old sterile football. It usually comes with (as per your reply) the odd example from 11 years of matches when good football was seen from a Moyes team. And it pretty much underlines the case that he was by and large an uninspiring and dull manager.

 

[neil999]

It's quite true. However at the end of last season when we ground out 1-0 wins people did call it boring and scrappy.

Personally scoring 8 against Bournemouth Leicester and stoke and coming away with a point is just very frustrating. We go into our hardest run of the season having dropped 10 points

agree we need to get that balance

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Moyes won nothing but he made Everton becoming the best of the rest in the PL during his regime.

Moyes left us stronger than when he got here

He left Martinez a strong foundation

He won naff all and was a tit during the Baines situation

We thumped his United team at Goodison and got him sacked

His Everton side could play some nice togger on occasion, but couldn't manage it consistently

He probably should have left sooner than he did

He reached a Cup Final and got us fourth. These are two achievements Roberto Martinez has thus far been unable to match

Roberto Martinez is a fantastic attacking manager. Probably one of the best in European football. His attacking prowess is matched only by his defensive frailties

Get a new defensive coach Bobby and take a step back from the defensive end of things. And drop the useless starfish tit between the sticks!

 

[toffeejack]

Really? I don't find a get away excuse for the manager actually. He had 4 attackers (not including Ross) who aren't good at defending after 70 mins. I understand that when the team was behind and chasing a game with not much time left but 3-2 you got to be ruthless and close the game out. The lineup and his subs did not show that.

All around me in GT6 we were saying make a sub and protect this defence at 3-2. May not have prevented the goals but would have least given me some re-assurance that he recognises a problem and pro-actively attempts to deal with it.

Too many of our games descend into basketball matches in the last 20 with a complete disconnect between attack and defence. Against norwich when jerome blasted the ball over the bar the camera behind the goal revealed 4 everton players at or around the halfway line - they obviously think/are coached to believe that protecting our goal is nothing to do with them.

Am fearing a proper education at the hands of spurs on sunday - fitter,more compact,better organised and perform both functions as a team

Moyes was lambasted for doing the exact same because it usually ended up with the opposition getting a late equaliser. I'm not a massive fan of shutting up shop to be honest, it bites you on the ass a lot. we have a keeper, 4 defenders and 2 defensive mids - should really be enough to do the job of closing out the victory, without having to add an 8th defensive minded player. You can't revert to a defensive mindset with still 20 mins left of the match.

 

[orly]

Under Moyes it was 'what do you expect, that's the best we can do with the resources- and no trophies'.

With Martinez, 'we should be doing better than we are with the resources he has'.

Martinez has raised the expectations and getting criticised for it.

I make no bones that I was glad to see the back of Moyes and his defensive football style. I knew the Manu job was too big for him and was not surprised that the fans turned against him and the results didn't go the way they expected. He turned a winning team into a shell of itself due to his negativity. He had the resources but couldn't hack it. Same with talented Spaniards couldn't reach the next level and take a team forward.

Moyes steady the ship with us and at times we did play some good football but it was all to fleeting. Moyes kept saying like a badge of honour 'I'm always learning about the game and will not stop'. That statement proved illusionary and only in his head. We couldn't keep the ball at times when we were in front. The mantra was 'get rid up field' only for it to go to an opposition player and come straight back. We held out some times and others we didn't. Not all of Moyes' teams could see out games and in other game we never left our half and only made a half a*sed attempt at attacking. And then concede two or three and we'd traipse home think 'well that's another game we never turned up for'.


Only to go the next time with the hope of 'I just want us to go for it, just once go for it. Don't sit back and defend because we get beat anyway'. Moyes never could in a million years change and still couldn't win at Old Trafford when we scored 4 - the only time we really did go for it against the top 4. Moyes had a stubbornness not to change when he played the top 4. During Moyes's reign how many premier league teams can say they never won at either Chelsea, LFC, Manu or Arsenal?. How many have Moyes's unenviable record? Even Brown's Hull won at Arsenal, But us, we just turned up, rolled over and got our bellies tickled. How the players ever put up with that I'd never know. As fans we turned up argue about what we should do that day, have a few bevvies, have a laugh, sing a bit, get beat or at best get a draw and go home.

I would say that Moyes underachieved with some of the squads he assembled. Why? Because he saw the defensive side of things first and foremost. He worked on the break down, so 'don't go too far up the pitch' 'make sure you are in position in case'. I posted the other day my favourite Martinez goal -


Manchester United Vs Everton 0 1 All Goals & Highlights 4122013 Oviedo Goal

There were 5 minutes to go at Old Trafford and we had 8 players within 30 yards of their goal and scored. If that had been Moyes with 5 minutes to go we would have had 10 behind the ball with no ambition to score. And it would have been like that from the first minute. I've never forgotten how bad some of the dire football was under Moyes and I for one was glad he went. Thank you but good riddance to poor football punctuated sometimes with some pleasing stuff but all too fleeting.

We couldn't even beat the worst LFC team in a semi final I've seen since I stared watching us in the 60s. Even though we took the lead, Moyes's team couldn't even see out a semi final game. We couldn't control the ball, we crapped ourselves in possession, we had no movement etc. That game was the final straw for me and I never wanted such a negative playing style of a manager ever to walk over our doorstep.

And I don't think I was the only one that was glad to see the back of Moyes. During Martinez's short 2 1/2 years his style of play has put 2 000 on average on the gate. More Evertonians now want to come and see this team than they did Moyes's teams.

Martinez will sort out the defence as he sorted out our attacking style. Of that I am convinced. He may change to a 4 -3 -3 like he did against Chelsea this season. He may give Howard a rest. He may drop Stones when he can. He may play 3 at the back. But the biggest element driving the desire to change the defending, will be the players own desire to work on their own game that will sort it out. As it was when we changed last year the attacking side of our game, to play to Lukaku's strengths.

More absolute drivel.

I've already explained the tosh about the attendances in another thread. It's utter bilge.

The united game was 4 December 2013 - over two years ago. Even you can see we've gone backwards since then. And what makes this example even funnier is you've shown us the last time we've beaten a top side away. He's going to have to break his run spectacularly to beat City in the semi.

Moyes wouldn't have done it away at a big side like Martinez vs United?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/9307308.stm

Here's where we win 2-1 away at a City side with Tevez and Yaya Toure. He brings Saha on for Coleman in the 79th minute. Anichebe got sent off around the hour mark. But if you know your history, hey.

Couldn't beat the worse RS side since the 60s? The Hodgson side was laughably bad. You must have had your hands over your eyes when we've been beaten two years on the trot at home to Palace... and Stoke... Cracking draw down at Norwich though.

Martinez will sort out the defence as he sorted out our attacking style. Of that I am convinced.

Oh really? I wouldn't look at his years at Wigan or the last 18 months here then, save yourself some disappointment.

Here's the season where, shock of shocks, we managed to play european football and not finish bottom half

5 Everton 38 19 8 11 55 33 +22 65

So that's a total of six less goals scored and six less conceded (and seven points less) than the Halewood Globetrotters team you're still holding wistfully onto. We also managed the semi-final of the league cup (this season's highpoint so far) and last 16 in Europe. Out first round to Oldham the blot on the copybook. But hey, you're right, Moyes never really went for it.


The last few years of Moyes' reign were a miserable time - not necessarily because of results, more a bad combination of beauts like him, Steve Round and Phil Neville being in it for their own self-aggrandisement. He'd given up caring.

But the biggest element driving the desire to change the defending, will be the players own desire to work on their own game that will sort it out.

Jesus absolute wept. If the players are going to coach themselves better, what on earth are we employing him for? Oh yes that's right, so we can fete him over the goals scored chart.

During Moyes's reign how many premier league teams can say they never won at either Chelsea, LFC, Manu or Arsenal?

Martinez hasn't won at Chelsea, had us 4-0 down after 50 minutes against Liverpool and hasn't won at Arsenal. His away record against the so-called 'big sides' [spit] is weighted very, very heavily on that United result.

I've never forgotten how bad some of the dire football was under Moyes and I for one was glad he went. Thank you but good riddance to poor football punctuated sometimes with some pleasing stuff but all too fleeting.

And yet, remarkably, you've forgotten how bad it was for most of last season, particularly the bit where we managed 21 points from 19 games. Look at this corker of a run

20/12/2014 15:00 A Southampton FC 0:3 (0:1)
26/12/2014 15:00 H Stoke City 0:1 (0:1)
28/12/2014 16:15 A Newcastle United 2:3 (1:1)
01/01/2015 15:00 A Hull City 0:2 (0:2)

We played some cracking football in those four. There's also a sublime midseason run where we manage 3 wins in 18 games.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

It was clearly a joke

It was either way mate

 

[banno]

seems some people prefer consistent averageness than our current highs and lows, almost human nature to not want to be that risk taker...interesting

This is true. I was very grateful for Moyes in his first 4-5 seasons as he got us to a top table finish regardless how the football was not pretty. It was after that when we all thought we should kick on but we couldn't because of resources that killed it for me. His tactics was basically get a point if we win then a bonus then little old everton kicked in nationwide and all the media and our management convinced many that Everton was doing great. That was it....same old same old and as you rightly say consistent averageness and Everton was there just to exist and nothing else.

Current highs and lows is also a perfect description and I would take it all day rather than a safe team. Its not working at the moment and everyone can see that but we can also see an exciting style, some great football and defo not a safe team. Something is there and work still needs doing. I am more excited about this Martinez team than I am about any Moyes team. Its a rollercoaster ride rather than the tea-cup ride.

 

[Lowste]

I completely disagree about Newcastle

We didn't cope well, we just got lucky that they wasted two great headers and headed another shot right at Howard

The fact is our defensive approach is no better and Martinez seemingly has nothing up his sleeves to fix it. That's the biggest worry for me. I don't know if Martinez is even capable of sorting the defensive issues out. Past history at his previous clubs suggest he isn't. I don't think a new defender would fix things. It's not the personnel, it's the system itself

Why doesn't he practice corners in training? Why doesn't he bring in a new defensive coach? Why doesn't he drop Howard? Why doesn't he do ANYTHING? He simply can't think things are okay as they currently are. He just can't.

One of the headers we good defending by Coleman who just eased him out of the way so no way of directing the ball.
The Mitrovic header was caused by Stones stepping out of position and trying to win a ball that was never his to win. If he would of stayed in position he would of easily dealt with it, instead though it was left to Baines who,was always going to be second best. As for the Howard one, surely teams will get chances in the 90mins
I don't disagree over a defensive coach, or over Howard, over defending corners we appear to of done some work but only time will tell
I do think a experienced defender would help, in Vidic he knows the game inside out and also is a leader and that is something we lack.

 

[edge]

We were hardly Holland 1974 under Moyes, but the quality of football we were capable off under him was far better than some suggest

Revisionist history in the extreme

never his biggest fan because he bottled it in the big games, but i must admit at times we played some decent football.

 

[WarringtonBlue]

Moyes left us stronger than when he got here

He left Martinez a strong foundation

He won naff all and was a tit during the Baines situation

We thumped his United team at Goodison and got him sacked

His Everton side could play some nice togger on occasion, but couldn't manage it consistently

He probably should have left sooner than he did

He reached a Cup Final and got us fourth. These are two achievements Roberto Martinez has thus far been unable to match

Roberto Martinez is a fantastic attacking manager. Probably one of the best in European football. His attacking prowess is matched only by his defensive frailties

Get a new defensive coach Bobby and take a step back from the defensive end of things. And drop the useless starfish tit between the sticks!

Genuinely think if he dropped howard he'd win a sizeable amount of his detractors back

 

[hullefc]

I agree with most of that, but Martinez has no track record of sorting out any teams defence, so what gives you the confidence that he's capable of sorting out ours?

"Martinez will sort out the defence as he sorted out our attacking style. Of that I am convinced. He may change to a 4 -3 -3 like he did against Chelsea this season. He may give Howard a rest. He may drop Stones when he can. He may play 3 at the back. But the biggest element driving the desire to change the defending, will be the players own desire to work on their own game that will sort it out. As it was when we changed last year the attacking side of our game, to play to Lukaku's strengths".

Martinez is no fool and can see like the rest of us that we are conceding goals. He is always going to carry around the 'what he did at Wigan' and the 'defensive side of the game'. Fine. He is always going to carry around that baggage and any discussion will always point at Wigan's defensive frailties and say 'see that's how Martinez's teams defend'. I suppose much like Mourinho will always be tarnished with 'he got the sack because he turned a league winning side into also rans'. And Van Gaal will always carry the baggage that 'he squandered millions and the Manu still were crap'. Or Moyes with his negative football mentality.

The only way that he can dispel that is to 'improve' our defending. But it is a two way thing with the coaches and players, as it was for our vast improvement in attack. Lukaku improved because he had the desire to work on aspects of his game that needed sharpening. And in the process made a mockery me and any doubts I had about his ability and worth to us.

If we have the professionals, I think we have, it will be driven by the players - as it should because they are the ones on the pitch that have to defend.

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

We were hardly Holland 1974 under Moyes, but the quality of football we were capable off under him was far better than some suggest

Revisionist history in the extreme

...when you're blinded by the BOB mate you see no further back, it's not allowed it seems.