Roberto Martinez discussion

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We finished 11th last season, we're 11th at the half way point this season, all those bottom of the table finishes with Wigan and an eventual relegation. It looks like the bottom half of the table is where Martinez belongs.
 

Lowste said:
i wouldn't argue over the book stopping with RM
We were up in arms over defending crosses and corners, there has been work done and against Newcastle we coped well.
We now need to concentrate on cutting the individual errors which seem to haunt us, I hate to single Stones out but yesterday he played numerous poor forward balls that put us on the back foot, their second goal being the main example.
I buy into the footballing philosophy from RM, but we need to get players who are defenders to defend and play football at the right opportunities.
As for Howard everybody in the ground can see he is not fit for purpose, this stubbornness by RM could be his undoing

I have said in other threads I would go and sign Vidic, he would sort things out on the pitch and also on the training field
Make no bones we need defensive know how and experience
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I completely disagree about Newcastle

We didn't cope well, we just got lucky that they wasted two great headers and headed another shot right at Howard

The fact is our defensive approach is no better and Martinez seemingly has nothing up his sleeves to fix it. That's the biggest worry for me. I don't know if Martinez is even capable of sorting the defensive issues out. Past history at his previous clubs suggest he isn't. I don't think a new defender would fix things. It's not the personnel, it's the system itself

Why doesn't he practice corners in training? Why doesn't he bring in a new defensive coach? Why doesn't he drop Howard? Why doesn't he do ANYTHING? He simply can't think things are okay as they currently are. He just can't.
 
Steve Wigan said:
What I would do, at least as a temporary measure...when Jagielka is fit, sacrifice the Kone/Mirallas/Lennon position, play all three of Jags, Mori and Stones but use Jags as an old fashioned sweeper. The attack would still be quite lethal,with lots of options. and the defence should be a lot less generous.
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This really isn't a bad option. I saw someone having a go at Barkley yesterday with the "what does he offer defensively". It misses the point. When you have 3 players of the calibre and quality of Barkley/ Lukaku/Deulofeu who have the stats offensively as they do you need to get a scaffold in place to allow them to produce what they can.
 
Lowste said:
So you know the new owners and you know what their plans are
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Lowste, give it a rest jumping on my posts.

New owners generally come in and have their own plans for a club. The manager hardly ever survives.

When we have a manager who has been massively underachieving for a season and a half, that manager will be sacked.

The current owners have no ambition for the club and had to be forced by the fans to sack Smith.

Any other 'big' team would have sacked Martinez by now.

If you don't think it'll happen under a different board, then more fool you.
 
Precisely.

boris said:
I don't think he rates Howard highly, he's just still building his squad and I expect Howard to be the next to go. There's nothing to be gained by hanging him out to dry although he should of played Robles by now.

I can only assume that he believed what little money was available in the summer was better spent on a 3rd choice centre which was probably right as we've suffered long term injuries to our 1st and 4th choice centre halves a since.
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GwladysBlue said:
Lowste, give it a rest jumping on my posts.

New owners generally come in and have their own plans for a club. The manager hardly ever survives.

When we have a manager who has been massively underachieving for a season and a half, that manager will be sacked.

The current owners have no ambition for the club and had to be forced by the fans to sack Smith.

Any other 'big' team would have sacked Martinez by now.

If you don't think it'll happen under a different board, then more fool you.
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Monk had a better record over the last 18 months than Martinez and he went, our board are cowards and will never sack him.

If new owners come in, he'll get a few games to show what he has, and he won't show much, so he will be sacked.
 
Under Moyes it was 'what do you expect, that's the best we can do with the resources- and no trophies'.

With Martinez, 'we should be doing better than we are with the resources he has'.

Martinez has raised the expectations and getting criticised for it.

I make no bones that I was glad to see the back of Moyes and his defensive football style. I knew the Manu job was too big for him and was not surprised that the fans turned against him and the results didn't go the way they expected. He turned a winning team into a shell of itself due to his negativity. He had the resources but couldn't hack it. Same with talented Spaniards couldn't reach the next level and take a team forward.

Moyes steady the ship with us and at times we did play some good football but it was all to fleeting. Moyes kept saying like a badge of honour 'I'm always learning about the game and will not stop'. That statement proved illusionary and only in his head. We couldn't keep the ball at times when we were in front. The mantra was 'get rid up field' only for it to go to an opposition player and come straight back. We held out some times and others we didn't. Not all of Moyes' teams could see out games and in other game we never left our half and only made a half a*sed attempt at attacking. And then concede two or three and we'd traipse home think 'well that's another game we never turned up for'.


Only to go the next time with the hope of 'I just want us to go for it, just once go for it. Don't sit back and defend because we get beat anyway'. Moyes never could in a million years change and still couldn't win at Old Trafford when we scored 4 - the only time we really did go for it against the top 4. Moyes had a stubbornness not to change when he played the top 4. During Moyes's reign how many premier league teams can say they never won at either Chelsea, LFC, Manu or Arsenal?. How many have Moyes's unenviable record? Even Brown's Hull won at Arsenal, But us, we just turned up, rolled over and got our bellies tickled. How the players ever put up with that I'd never know. As fans we turned up argue about what we should do that day, have a few bevvies, have a laugh, sing a bit, get beat or at best get a draw and go home.

I would say that Moyes underachieved with some of the squads he assembled. Why? Because he saw the defensive side of things first and foremost. He worked on the break down, so 'don't go too far up the pitch' 'make sure you are in position in case'. I posted the other day my favourite Martinez goal -


Manchester United Vs Everton 0 1 All Goals & Highlights 4122013 Oviedo Goal

There were 5 minutes to go at Old Trafford and we had 8 players within 30 yards of their goal and scored. If that had been Moyes with 5 minutes to go we would have had 10 behind the ball with no ambition to score. And it would have been like that from the first minute. I've never forgotten how bad some of the dire football was under Moyes and I for one was glad he went. Thank you but good riddance to poor football punctuated sometimes with some pleasing stuff but all too fleeting.

We couldn't even beat the worst LFC team in a semi final I've seen since I stared watching us in the 60s. Even though we took the lead, Moyes's team couldn't even see out a semi final game. We couldn't control the ball, we crapped ourselves in possession, we had no movement etc. That game was the final straw for me and I never wanted such a negative playing style of a manager ever to walk over our doorstep.

And I don't think I was the only one that was glad to see the back of Moyes. During Martinez's short 2 1/2 years his style of play has put 2 000 on average on the gate. More Evertonians now want to come and see this team than they did Moyes's teams.

Martinez will sort out the defence as he sorted out our attacking style. Of that I am convinced. He may change to a 4 -3 -3 like he did against Chelsea this season. He may give Howard a rest. He may drop Stones when he can. He may play 3 at the back. But the biggest element driving the desire to change the defending, will be the players own desire to work on their own game that will sort it out. As it was when we changed last year the attacking side of our game, to play to Lukaku's strengths.
 
I remember when we got thumped by United 3-0 earlier this season , some fans were saying we were beaten by a far superior team. Does that still stand looking 2 months on ? Our defense made United's toothless attack look dangerous.
 
hullefc said:
Under Moyes it was 'what do you expect, that's the best we can do with the resources- and no trophies'.

With Martinez, 'we should be doing better than we are with the resources he has'.

Martinez has raised the expectations and getting criticised for it.

I make no bones that I was glad to see the back of Moyes and his defensive football style. I knew the Manu job was too big for him and was not surprised that the fans turned against him and the results didn't go the way they expected. He turned a winning team into a shell of itself due to his negativity. He had the resources but couldn't hack it. Same with talented Spaniards couldn't reach the next level and take a team forward.

Moyes steady the ship with us and at times we did play some good football but it was all to fleeting. Moyes kept saying like a badge of honour 'I'm always learning about the game and will not stop'. That statement proved illusionary and only in his head. We couldn't keep the ball at times when we were in front. The mantra was 'get rid up field' only for it to go to an opposition player and come straight back. We held out some times and others we didn't. Not all of Moyes' teams could see out games and in other game we never left our half and only made a half a*sed attempt at attacking. And then concede two or three and we'd traipse home think 'well that's another game we never turned up for'.


Only to go the next time with the hope of 'I just want us to go for it, just once go for it. Don't sit back and defend because we get beat anyway'. Moyes never could in a million years change and still couldn't win at Old Trafford when we scored 4 - the only time we really did go for it against the top 4. Moyes had a stubbornness not to change when he played the top 4. During Moyes's reign how many premier league teams can say they never won at either Chelsea, LFC, Manu or Arsenal?. How many have Moyes's unenviable record? Even Brown's Hull won at Arsenal, But us, we just turned up, rolled over and got our bellies tickled. How the players ever put up with that I'd never know. As fans we turned up argue about what we should do that day, have a few bevvies, have a laugh, sing a bit, get beat or at best get a draw and go home.

I would say that Moyes underachieved with some of the squads he assembled. Why? Because he saw the defensive side of things first and foremost. He worked on the break down, so 'don't go too far up the pitch' 'make sure you are in position in case'. I posted the other day my favourite Martinez goal -


Manchester United Vs Everton 0 1 All Goals & Highlights 4122013 Oviedo Goal

There were 5 minutes to go at Old Trafford and we had 8 players within 30 yards of their goal and scored. If that had been Moyes with 5 minutes to go we would have had 10 behind the ball with no ambition to score. And it would have been like that from the first minute. I've never forgotten how bad some of the dire football was under Moyes and I for one was glad he went. Thank you but good riddance to poor football punctuated sometimes with some pleasing stuff but all too fleeting.

We couldn't even beat the worst LFC team in a semi final I've seen since I stared watching us in the 60s. Even though we took the lead, Moyes's team couldn't even see out a semi final game. We couldn't control the ball, we crapped ourselves in possession, we had no movement etc. That game was the final straw for me and I never wanted such a negative playing style of a manager ever to walk over our doorstep.

And I don't think I was the only one that was glad to see the back of Moyes. During Martinez's short 2 1/2 years his style of play has put 2 000 on average on the gate. More Evertonians now want to come and see this team than they did Moyes's teams.

Martinez will sort out the defence as he sorted out our attacking style. Of that I am convinced. He may change to a 4 -3 -3 like he did against Chelsea this season. He may give Howard a rest. He may drop Stones when he can. He may play 3 at the back. But the biggest element driving the desire to change the defending, will be the players own desire to work on their own game that will sort it out. As it was when we changed last year the attacking side of our game, to play to Lukaku's strengths.
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A fair amount of time must have gone into writing that, and it's all pretty much on point. Our Bobby really doesn't get any credit.
 

hullefc said:
Under Moyes it was 'what do you expect, that's the best we can do with the resources- and no trophies'.

With Martinez, 'we should be doing better than we are with the resources he has'.

Martinez has raised the expectations and getting criticised for it.

I make no bones that I was glad to see the back of Moyes and his defensive football style. I knew the Manu job was too big for him and was not surprised that the fans turned against him and the results didn't go the way they expected. He turned a winning team into a shell of itself due to his negativity. He had the resources but couldn't hack it. Same with talented Spaniards couldn't reach the next level and take a team forward.

Moyes steady the ship with us and at times we did play some good football but it was all to fleeting. Moyes kept saying like a badge of honour 'I'm always learning about the game and will not stop'. That statement proved illusionary and only in his head. We couldn't keep the ball at times when we were in front. The mantra was 'get rid up field' only for it to go to an opposition player and come straight back. We held out some times and others we didn't. Not all of Moyes' teams could see out games and in other game we never left our half and only made a half a*sed attempt at attacking. And then concede two or three and we'd traipse home think 'well that's another game we never turned up for'.


Only to go the next time with the hope of 'I just want us to go for it, just once go for it. Don't sit back and defend because we get beat anyway'. Moyes never could in a million years change and still couldn't win at Old Trafford when we scored 4 - the only time we really did go for it against the top 4. Moyes had a stubbornness not to change when he played the top 4. During Moyes's reign how many premier league teams can say they never won at either Chelsea, LFC, Manu or Arsenal?. How many have Moyes's unenviable record? Even Brown's Hull won at Arsenal, But us, we just turned up, rolled over and got our bellies tickled. How the players ever put up with that I'd never know. As fans we turned up argue about what we should do that day, have a few bevvies, have a laugh, sing a bit, get beat or at best get a draw and go home.

I would say that Moyes underachieved with some of the squads he assembled. Why? Because he saw the defensive side of things first and foremost. He worked on the break down, so 'don't go too far up the pitch' 'make sure you are in position in case'. I posted the other day my favourite Martinez goal -


Manchester United Vs Everton 0 1 All Goals & Highlights 4122013 Oviedo Goal

There were 5 minutes to go at Old Trafford and we had 8 players within 30 yards of their goal and scored. If that had been Moyes with 5 minutes to go we would have had 10 behind the ball with no ambition to score. And it would have been like that from the first minute. I've never forgotten how bad some of the dire football was under Moyes and I for one was glad he went. Thank you but good riddance to poor football punctuated sometimes with some pleasing stuff but all too fleeting.

We couldn't even beat the worst LFC team in a semi final I've seen since I stared watching us in the 60s. Even though we took the lead, Moyes's team couldn't even see out a semi final game. We couldn't control the ball, we crapped ourselves in possession, we had no movement etc. That game was the final straw for me and I never wanted such a negative playing style of a manager ever to walk over our doorstep.

And I don't think I was the only one that was glad to see the back of Moyes. During Martinez's short 2 1/2 years his style of play has put 2 000 on average on the gate. More Evertonians now want to come and see this team than they did Moyes's teams.

Martinez will sort out the defence as he sorted out our attacking style. Of that I am convinced. He may change to a 4 -3 -3 like he did against Chelsea this season. He may give Howard a rest. He may drop Stones when he can. He may play 3 at the back. But the biggest element driving the desire to change the defending, will be the players own desire to work on their own game that will sort it out. As it was when we changed last year the attacking side of our game, to play to Lukaku's strengths.
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I agree with most of that, but Martinez has no track record of sorting out any teams defence, so what gives you the confidence that he's capable of sorting out ours?
 
"The squad quality at this club is top 4 all day long".

Totally wrong and ridiculous.


The Mighty Quint said:
I have posted yesterday several views from Wigan fans on Martinez in this thread, go read them, the parallels to what happened there and now here are frightening.

Do not expect us to defend better any time soon, he took over from Bruce at Wigan when he had the 7th best defence in the league, within 3 and half months under Martinez they shipped more goals than the entire season under Bruce previously.

I can't put up with the way we leak goals anymore, I can't put up with Howard in net either, Martinez will not drop him, and he will not improve us defensively any time soon, it's not in his nature, he places little value on defending, he's nuts.

Best squad we have had in 25 years and Martinez is going to waste it and force our top players to look for other places to play their football.

The squad quality at this club is top 4 all day long, we have the best striker in the league, 2nd best goals scored record and the worst defence, nobody has shipped more goals at home then us.
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