Roberto Martinez discussion

[dannyboy]

Don't think I've ever known anybody be as excited to be in a carling cup semi as you. You do know we've drawn city don't you?

A lot of people feeling very optimistic about that tie. Not quite sure why given our recent history...

 

[dannyboy]

Bizarre post. I remember this miraculous season in 07/08 where we got to a league cup semi, went on a long run in the Europa, came fifth playing good football throughout, blooded some youngsters. Apparently that's impossible now though, Europa involvement automatically results in relegation form (unless your Spurs or Liverpool), you can't mix a cup run with European football, and league form has to be disregarded if you are playing any young players whatsoever.

There's a clear issue here that Moyes did well whilst at Everton. Some people can go to extreme lengths to deny it but it's there for all to see.

In my eyes it probably works against Martinez. I don't know if it's realistic for us to be in that upper echelon of teams every year but it's what Moyes achieved and for me anything less is a step backwards.

 

[Khalekan]

If Moyes had got midtable finishes but given the two cups all we had to offer in the 11 seasons he was here I'd have had less of a problem with him.

I still dont get what people see in a top half finish that lands outside the CL spots. It's not only useless, it's worse than useless, because it lands you with the great possibility of having to play in that energy sapping season destroying nightmare AKA the EL the following season.

We're not getting a CL spot without huge investment. Attractive attacking football and giving the cups a a real go is the way to go for this club. I think Martinez suits that remit down to the ground.

Dave. I am struggling with your logic here.

I agree with you about the overratedness of a top half finish outside the CL places........but I cannot see how you regard it as being "worse than useless" because of the possibility of having to play in the "energy sapping season destroying nightmare AKA the EL".

Because you, like myself, want to see our dear old club running round Wembley with either of the two Cups they dole out down there this season.

Or both

But if we do that then we also wind up in the "energy sapping season destroying nightmare AKA the EL".

I for one hope EFC is playing in the EL next season, assuming we don't make the CL, because it will mean we have won a cup at best, or finished high up the league table at worst.

Finishing as high up the league as we possibly can and winning Cups.......that is what this club has strived for from its very inception and please God that will always be its mission........and neither the fans, the manager, nor the players should do owt but salivate at the thoughts of us playing in Europe next season and all seasons after that.

 

[deipnosophist]

A lot of people feeling very optimistic about that tie. Not quite sure why given our recent history...

...it's the blue tinted delusion syndrome...quite prevalent around these parts

 

[ilikecheese]

There's a clear issue here that Moyes did well whilst at Everton. Some people can go to extreme lengths to deny it but it's there for all to see.

In my eyes it probably works against Martinez. I don't know if it's realistic for us to be in that upper echelon of teams every year but it's what Moyes achieved and for me anything less is a step backwards.

The biggest problem with Moyes is that while he was a good servant to the club he never was going to win anything because of his bottling tactics. He did very well in the market and made us a good side. The best of the rest as it were. Big deal.

He feared the big moment and crumbled like a house of cards in the high pressure situations. He was safe though, so I can understand why folks gravitated to him. You knew what you'd get. Top half finishes...nothing more nothing less (mostly). One CL appearance in 11 years with a couple of sniffs at a pot really isn't NSNO is it?

If you can't see the forest for the trees with what Martinez is trying to do, then yeah, you will hate him. It will be far more uneven with the emphasis on youth and buying young players.

He gives us a better chance of winning a pot and actually winning the league with what he is trying to build. Will it happen? Hard to say. Give him 11 years, and we'll win a couple of pots and probably make Europe a few times.

 

[dannyboy]

The biggest problem with Moyes is that while he was a good servant to the club he never was going to win anything because of his bottling tactics. He did very well in the market and made us a good side. The best of the rest as it were. Big deal.

He feared the big moment and crumbled like a house of cards in the high pressure situations. He was safe though, so I can understand why folks gravitated to him. You knew what you'd get. Top half finishes...nothing more nothing less (mostly). One CL appearance in 11 years with a couple of sniffs at a pot really isn't NSNO is it?

If you can't see the forest for the trees with what Martinez is trying to do, then yeah, you will hate him. It will be far more uneven with the emphasis on youth and buying young players.

He gives us a better chance of winning a pot and actually winning the league with what he is trying to build. Will it happen? Hard to say. Give him 11 years, and we'll win a couple of pots and probably make Europe a few times.

For him to get 11 years he has to show progress like any other manager. Winning cups has a huge element of luck to it, take our route to the semi final for example.

If we go out against City am I right to call Martinez a bottler? Of course not. The fact is the better teams usually win high pressure games and there's little the manager can do to influence that. Hence why our record away from home against the best teams in the league has continued to be dismal for well over 10 years now.

The league is his bread and butter, he's got to do far better in that than he did last year. I think it's a bit ridiculous for people to be going around saying "we're going to target the cups", which team doesn't? You can't hope to define your season on these games because more often than not you're likely to come unstuck. I remember a similar sentiment with regards to the Europa League last year and we all know how that ended up.

Right now he's assembled a good squad but isn't getting the best out of them and there's rightfully questions being asked until it gets sorted.

 

[ilikecheese]

For him to get 11 years he has to show progress like any other manager. Winning cups has a huge element of luck to it, take our route to the semi final for example.

If we go out against City am I right to call Martinez a bottler? Of course not. The fact is the better teams usually win high pressure games and there's little the manager can do to influence that. Hence why our record away from home against the best teams in the league has continued to be dismal for well over 10 years now.

The league is his bread and butter, he's got to do far better in that than he did last year. I think it's a bit ridiculous for people to be going around saying "we're going to target the cups", which team doesn't? You can't hope to define your season on these games because more often than not you're likely to come unstuck. I remember a similar sentiment with regards to the Europa League last year and we all know how that ended up.

Right now he's assembled a good squad but isn't getting the best out of them and there's rightfully questions being asked until it gets sorted.

Nah...you are not seeing the forest for the trees as I expected.

Moreover you are not accepting/admitting that Moyes bottled the big moment.

Martinez's Wigan side was the nail in the coffin for Moyes with me...everything confirmed...what an abysmal day.

 

[dannyboy]

Nah...you are not seeing the forest for the trees as I expected.

Moreover you are not accepting/admitting that Moyes bottled the big moment.

Martinez's Wigan side was the nail in the coffin for Moyes with me...everything confirmed...what an abysmal day.

Alright, Moyes bottled the big moments. Just like Martinez has in all his cup competitions at Everton to date.

It's secondary to what's being discussed anyway. Whatever you think Martinez is building here won't last long unless we show signs of progress that the likes of Lukaku can get behind. If he doesn't sort the defence out and start winning games against decent teams do you think our best players are going to hang around for his project?

 

[ilikecheese]

Alright, Moyes bottled the big moments. Just like Martinez has in all his cup competitions at Everton to date.

It's secondary to what's being discussed anyway. Whatever you think Martinez is building here won't last long unless we show signs of progress that the likes of Lukaku can get behind. If he doesn't sort the defence out and start winning games against decent teams do you think our best players are going to hang around for his project?

Fair play for the bottling bit with Moyes. If we could only get @Saint Domingo and @ianefc to admit it as well. We all know it to be a reality.

Martinez has managed a couple of notches on his belt...if anything the eye test will say we are trying to win games against the top sides usually. Anyone bringing up the Kendall/United game this season at home deserves a punch in the face.

To get on with what you think is the primary discussion, what is he building here, and how long it will last.

He is building a side full of potentially world class players. Ross, Rom, Del, Stones being the big four. McCarthy and Coleman being within a sniff of them. Who knows what will happen with some of the other young players he's signed.

He is taking his chances on the only route we have to winning the league because of finances. Buy young and buy low. Find a few like Cleverley along the way to help.

Will he keep it together? That is the big question. That said, he's found incredible talent that we will profit off like we've never done before. I reckon we'll be alright if we end of selling the likes of Stones/Rom. A small nation's GDP would cringe at the money we got.

Anyway, I'll take your answer off the air. It's time to sleep here.

 

[smileychap]

good post although I'd submit that Everton is as much a stepping stone club as is Stoke. This reality might not sit well with many on here, but nevertheless, it's reality.

I'm not sure what's meant by 'stepping stone', here. I would understand from this that agents and players considering the GOT only do so as a fleeting window for attracting a 'bigger' club.

Most Everton signings (like Moyes himself previously) are here for a decent stint and really develop and add to the club in their time, no? Aside from Fellaini, Lescott and Arteta (all of whom contributed well and we made decent profit on later)) and Rooney whom we also sold for decent money then and still made CL, we've either kept hold of big talents like Ross Barkley, John Stones, Leighton Baines and added guys like Lukaku etc. Albeit I'd like to see more of Steven Naismith and a bit less wastefulness from Dolefeu, Kone and Barkley (separate conversation).

The current run of draws against arguably inferior opposition is frustrating and doubly so since in this season it's costing us an otherwise achievable CL slot but I still don't see why this makes Everton a 'stepping stone' in light of the longevity of Managers and continuity in many of the players between Moyes and Martinez's teams.

Apologies if I missed the point though.

 

[smileychap]

I do think we have a top 6 squad and should be getting top 6. If EFC lower our expectation i.e anything lower than 7th then this club is moving backward since Moyes left.

Agree in principle. My only gripe with the Europa slots is that repeated qualification seems to do little for any and especially middle-sized squads like ours. With decent football, and a cup run (or even a win, we hope!) I'm not that bothered to drop a place or two. The irony of a successful cup run being of course we end up in the discount-Europe league anyway. Sorry, I felt I had a much stronger point than that when I started this!

 

[smileychap]

There will be days when we are going to get those first 3 goals and obliterate teams, I am sure of it. The amount of chances we make, the goals we score from open play and the threat we have should be visible to anyone.

United are 4th, but I honestly would not trade in our position for theirs if it meant playing like them.

99% agree! I love the way the money clubs are unfolding this year. A Merry-go-round of cash producing little from Utd, Liverpool and City without Kompany / Aguerro (whilst publicly begging for Guardiola with an incumbent manager) must be embarrassing for decent fans.

Moyes did the business that brought Stones and Naismith in and Martinez has shown respect and continuity with other good aspects of that side and put more emphasis on attack. The resulting pace and intent of the team is clear and it is great to watch when it clicks.

So the only reservation I have with Martinez is do you not think we flatter to deceive a bit at times? We press well, and it kinda gives Martinez carte blanche to say "well we tried to win, look at the stats etc etc" but quite a lot of that is just repeatedly flinging the ball at Lukaku. I do think we lack a bit of brain at times; Dolofeu and Barkley can be as wasteful as they can be entertaining (top players just don't relinquish possession that easily) and a similar lack of concentration lets us down at the back.

Have you seen the thread on our Defensive coach? Bit of a concern...

 

[smileychap]

West Bron won 2 points less than us this calendar year.Stoke Leicester and Palace have won more points so far this calendar year than us.49 points in the period from January to Christmas.That just isn't good enough considering the talent in this squad and serious questions have to be asked despite the protestations of the plotters who want to leave Martinez in charge at all costs.See two can play the plotting game.

Good post, are those stats right? If so they are pretty stark that (as I've seen elsewhere on this forum) whilst we're rebuilding with a younger squad and playing some great football some Cup Progress at least would be nice. Ultimately nothing as exciting as CL though, to which your point your post is a good line in the sand. Nice one.

 

[smileychap]

Im sorry David but I dont consider 2 wins in 10 games as promising, I dont consider being in 10th place in 1 of the worst Premiership season as promising.

Can you please explain whats so promising about it, cos quite frankly im really struggling to take anything promising so far.

Yeah I am a bit concerned by the lack of concentration (a bit of a Martinez characteristic at Wigan) too. Saw this in a post a page or two back:

West Bron won 2 points less than us this calendar year.Stoke Leicester and Palace have won more points so far this calendar year than us.49 points in the period from January to Christmas.That just isn't good enough considering the talent in this squad and serious questions have to be asked despite the protestations of the plotters who want to leave Martinez in charge at all costs.See two can play the plotting game.

Overall for me Martinez needs two more season's to bed this side in. Some great talent, that now needs a season more or so to really mature and gel. The intent is there, likewise the pace and personnel. A cup would be a great symbol of the improvement in style but this can't mitigate declining League position for longer than a season or two of rebuilding for me.

 

[smileychap]

All the Martinez lovers in here scared of us bringing Mourinho in and El Fraudo being further exposed.

#WelcomeJose

Excuse my ignorance... Who is El Fraudo and why? I wouldn't mind Mourinho!