Roberto Martinez discussion

[Lowste]

TL;DR for the wall of text I'm going to write, it's frustrating but every premier league side is facing the same problem and we're building something special.

If you look at the change in the last 5 years in the Premier League teams, the wealth of money becomes more and more evident. 2/3 seasons ago Crystal Palace were relying on players like Barry Bannan, West Ham Ravel Morrison and Kevin Nolan, Stoke still had Peter Crouch as one of their main strikers etc. etc. Teams that in the Moyes era would be yo-yo clubs and be reguarly steamrollered by the 'top 4' 6-0 now have money to buy players from teams in Europe that traditionally play in the Europa or even Champion's League - Dimitri Payet, Wjinauldrum, Ogbonna, Shaqiri, Cabaye, Andrew Ayew. These players are using their current teams as stepping stone clubs and I doubt many of them (Cabaye excepted) will be there for that many more years. What this has meant though is that the League is mental. How many times have Manchester City, a team that spent £105 million on 2 players, been reliant on a last minute goal to get them out of sticky situations. Liverpool for all the Kloppmania have huffed and puffed cold. This is simply because the 'middle order', while not having the squad depth of the elite have all got now first XI that, when set up to play on the counter as almost every team other than the top 4 do now, really stick it to the established order.

How to keep hold of those players. If you set yourself as a stepping stone club for waifs and strays e.g. Stoke, then with good performances you acknowledge other clubs may come calling. If you set yourself as a team that can afford large wages in a nice big city for a rich young footballer e.g. West Ham, you might encourage a mercenary attitude that strips team morale. Everton we are trying something different. We tried big names with Samuel Eto'o. We're bringing in - and trusting - in youth. That means more than giving a youth player 5 minutes at the end of an easy win. It's trusting in youth, players still 21, 22 23 and younger - to carry the team, enact the philosophies the manager wishes to view, and so on. The only other team that I think is doing so is Spurs, who have a much higher wage bill, squad depth, and revenue than us, and for all their much deserved celebration will be 6 points at most better than us by the end of today. 6 points in December is far from insurmountable.


This is not to say the last 3 performances have been anything other than immensely frustrating. I was in the crowd for the Palace game and I have no idea how we didn't win it 5-1. However no team currently in the Premier League has got that balance of youth, game management and flair correct. Look at Manchester United, bringing in established internations with a solid defence - how many of them want to play with the old Fergie flair. Look at Arsenal, huge revenue, superstar players, but still losing to teams like WBA and Norwich. How much have Liverpool spent on strikers in 2 years and still don't have an established frontman? We should have won the last 3 games, no doubt. I'm not saying to whitewash it. But in the context of the most evenly matched and frankly unpredictable league in years, it has to be looked in context.

With regards the new goalkeeper, I think one is necessary, and it will probably (for better or worse) be in the summer. I think martinez subscribes to Wenger's philosophy of a few new first team players at a time, keeping wiser heads on for dressing room stability - see Osman and Hibbert, and it's no surprise Osman was crucial to us last season when we were struggling. But that is paying dividends in the understanding and responsibility our young players have together. When we play well, we are one of the most pleasing teams in the premiership, with only Arsenal and City (and possibly Spurs) close to what we can produce. We have a great mixture throughout the team, and it's clear we're building something. And I'm not sure what any other manager at this point would do, other than necessitate a rapid rebuilding of foundations.

The only teams in the world right now that can win every week and do so with flair and style are Barcelon and Bayern Munich. Everyone else is trying to find the balance. I was as frustrated as anyone else last afternoon and I hope we are working on defending set pieces but that doesn't mean that I'm not excited about what's growing here

Captured it perfectly mate

 

[Lowste]

Pretty sure they have a lower net spend than us.

When you sell the likes of Bale and Modric you no doubt will

Be interesting though

 

[oldblue]

One main thing I've woke up feeling this morning is that we've seen three brilliant games. Disappointing to just get three points but also not overly bothered as we are in a bit of limbo in the league at moment. Don't really want Europa football and don't think top four is realistic. Might not even be that desirable just yet as I don't see us attracting a higher grade of player and it could put others even more in the shop window.
Obviously we can't stand still, and we're not. It looks like we have a core of young players both on and off pitch who are learning to play well together and with style. We're looking like a great alternative to the circus that's going on at richer clubs. In this sense Martinez has won me round completely.
He is definitely stubborn about some stuff. Set pieces are the new one. It's been there for a few years to be honest. Fellaini as a presence was covering the cracks. Really hard to pinpoint what to do but we have no disciplined presence at the near post, no one with a consistent delivery apart from Garbutt, a keeper unwilling to get into the mix and centre halves who are better reading the game than attacking the ball. Don't see one particular player turning it round or even more practice. Probably gonna have to accept an exciting, flawed side till they mature and work it out.

 

[blue to the bone]

TL;DR for the wall of text I'm going to write, it's frustrating but every premier league side is facing the same problem and we're building something special.

If you look at the change in the last 5 years in the Premier League teams, the wealth of money becomes more and more evident. 2/3 seasons ago Crystal Palace were relying on players like Barry Bannan, West Ham Ravel Morrison and Kevin Nolan, Stoke still had Peter Crouch as one of their main strikers etc. etc. Teams that in the Moyes era would be yo-yo clubs and be reguarly steamrollered by the 'top 4' 6-0 now have money to buy players from teams in Europe that traditionally play in the Europa or even Champion's League - Dimitri Payet, Wjinauldrum, Ogbonna, Shaqiri, Cabaye, Andrew Ayew. These players are using their current teams as stepping stone clubs and I doubt many of them (Cabaye excepted) will be there for that many more years. What this has meant though is that the League is mental. How many times have Manchester City, a team that spent £105 million on 2 players, been reliant on a last minute goal to get them out of sticky situations. Liverpool for all the Kloppmania have huffed and puffed cold. This is simply because the 'middle order', while not having the squad depth of the elite have all got now first XI that, when set up to play on the counter as almost every team other than the top 4 do now, really stick it to the established order.

How to keep hold of those players. If you set yourself as a stepping stone club for waifs and strays e.g. Stoke, then with good performances you acknowledge other clubs may come calling. If you set yourself as a team that can afford large wages in a nice big city for a rich young footballer e.g. West Ham, you might encourage a mercenary attitude that strips team morale. Everton we are trying something different. We tried big names with Samuel Eto'o. We're bringing in - and trusting - in youth. That means more than giving a youth player 5 minutes at the end of an easy win. It's trusting in youth, players still 21, 22 23 and younger - to carry the team, enact the philosophies the manager wishes to view, and so on. The only other team that I think is doing so is Spurs, who have a much higher wage bill, squad depth, and revenue than us, and for all their much deserved celebration will be 6 points at most better than us by the end of today. 6 points in December is far from insurmountable.


This is not to say the last 3 performances have been anything other than immensely frustrating. I was in the crowd for the Palace game and I have no idea how we didn't win it 5-1. However no team currently in the Premier League has got that balance of youth, game management and flair correct. Look at Manchester United, bringing in established internations with a solid defence - how many of them want to play with the old Fergie flair. Look at Arsenal, huge revenue, superstar players, but still losing to teams like WBA and Norwich. How much have Liverpool spent on strikers in 2 years and still don't have an established frontman? We should have won the last 3 games, no doubt. I'm not saying to whitewash it. But in the context of the most evenly matched and frankly unpredictable league in years, it has to be looked in context.

With regards the new goalkeeper, I think one is necessary, and it will probably (for better or worse) be in the summer. I think martinez subscribes to Wenger's philosophy of a few new first team players at a time, keeping wiser heads on for dressing room stability - see Osman and Hibbert, and it's no surprise Osman was crucial to us last season when we were struggling. But that is paying dividends in the understanding and responsibility our young players have together. When we play well, we are one of the most pleasing teams in the premiership, with only Arsenal and City (and possibly Spurs) close to what we can produce. We have a great mixture throughout the team, and it's clear we're building something. And I'm not sure what any other manager at this point would do, other than necessitate a rapid rebuilding of foundations.

The only teams in the world right now that can win every week and do so with flair and style are Barcelon and Bayern Munich. Everyone else is trying to find the balance. I was as frustrated as anyone else last afternoon and I hope we are working on defending set pieces but that doesn't mean that I'm not excited about what's growing here

Excellent post

 

[Saint Domingo]

If you expect CL football and silverware every season, i think you maybe supporting the wrong team.

Look at our record since the mid 80's, not a great deal to shout about.

We have a shout this season for a CL place, but it is just a shout not a given right

I don't think we should accept mediocrity, but we have to be realistic

There should be an aspiration for it though. There's seasons where the whole top 4 have been locked out and fair enough that's hard to break without huge investment but this season Chelsea and United are throwing out a massive opportunity and we're not primed to take advantage. We're no longer even best of the rest, we're 9th maybe 10th.

I could buy an argument that we'll have a good run of form in the second half of the season and challenge but an argument that we should accept mediocrity every season to avoid disappointment seems counterintuitive for me.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Pretty sure they have a lower net spend than us.

Sold off any decent player of note as well. They've completely changed their midfield and strikeforce but apparently are a side 'a year ahead in their development' than us.

I'd love to know how a side are further ahead than us given they've had their manager less time, they've sold all their best players, and have a negative net spend. We've had the same manager and team pretty much for 2 and a half seasons and have kept our best players whilst adding to them. Apparently we're behind them in this mythical development cycle that doesn't exist.

 

[Lowste]

Pretty sure they have a lower net spend than us.

Here you go, you are spot on....last 5 years

But look at how much they have spent and to think how much they got for Bale and Modric (120ml)
# Net Spend last 5 Years Purchased Gross Sold Nett Per Season

1 Manchester City £472,700,000 £150,300,000 £322,400,000 £64,480,000
2 Manchester United £440,200,000 £139,500,000 £300,700,000 £60,140,000
4 Chelsea £471,209,000 £246,450,000 £224,759,000 £44,951,800
3 Liverpool £349,000,000 £186,370,000 £162,630,000 £32,526,000
5 Arsenal £253,625,000 £154,600,000 £99,025,000 £19,805,000
6 West Ham £109,900,000 £16,500,000 £93,400,000 £18,680,000
7 Newcastle £136,000,000 £67,600,000 £68,400,000 £13,680,000
8 Sunderland £118,430,000 £59,550,000 £58,880,000 £11,776,000
9 Crystal Palace £74,635,000 £23,900,000 £50,735,000 £10,147,000
14 West Bromwich Albion £74,750,000 £24,509,000 £50,241,000 £10,048,200
10 Leicester £55,100,000 £8,650,000 £46,450,000 £9,290,000
11 Stoke City £70,250,000 £24,100,000 £46,150,000 £9,230,000
15 Norwich City £63,575,000 £19,650,000 £43,925,000 £8,785,000
12 Aston Villa £123,850,000 £90,200,000 £33,650,000 £6,730,000
15 Southampton £175,100,000 £142,850,000 £32,250,000 £6,450,000
16 Bournemouth £30,550,000 £3,200,000 £27,350,000 £5,470,000
17 Everton £101,300,000 £80,816,000 £20,484,000 £4,096,800
18 Swansea £79,875,000 £66,160,000 £13,715,000 £2,743,000
19 Watford £22,650,000 £15,300,000 £7,350,000 £1,470,000
20 Tottenham £254,650,000 £291,350,000 -£36,700,000 -£7,340,000

 

[neonleon]

TL;DR for the wall of text I'm going to write, it's frustrating but every premier league side is facing the same problem and we're building something special.

If you look at the change in the last 5 years in the Premier League teams, the wealth of money becomes more and more evident. 2/3 seasons ago Crystal Palace were relying on players like Barry Bannan, West Ham Ravel Morrison and Kevin Nolan, Stoke still had Peter Crouch as one of their main strikers etc. etc. Teams that in the Moyes era would be yo-yo clubs and be reguarly steamrollered by the 'top 4' 6-0 now have money to buy players from teams in Europe that traditionally play in the Europa or even Champion's League - Dimitri Payet, Wjinauldrum, Ogbonna, Shaqiri, Cabaye, Andrew Ayew. These players are using their current teams as stepping stone clubs and I doubt many of them (Cabaye excepted) will be there for that many more years. What this has meant though is that the League is mental. How many times have Manchester City, a team that spent £105 million on 2 players, been reliant on a last minute goal to get them out of sticky situations. Liverpool for all the Kloppmania have huffed and puffed cold. This is simply because the 'middle order', while not having the squad depth of the elite have all got now first XI that, when set up to play on the counter as almost every team other than the top 4 do now, really stick it to the established order.

Agree that the league has become equal/tighter and the margins between defeat and victory slimmer. Not sure that Norwich or Bournemouth fit into the categories of having Europa or Champions League players though. They are fairly basic sides that wouldn't look out of place in the championship - freak results against United notwithstanding.

The thing is the money should be relative. Everyone has more cash to spend so results shouldn't change much. But what we see are diminishing results at the top of the table. United and City can spend 500 million between them on the offseason on a handful of players and the difference is marginal.

Our recruitment policy is commendable. We are building a great side. But unless a light goes on, unless Martinez can motivate them to play better, to play with more energy, to defend better, to dig in and get results I don't see the side staying together. There are serious issues at work when you dominate one half and then just collapse in the second. Where was the leadership? Why do they limp out of the dressing room with their heads down?

 

[WA Toffee]

Given the players we have and the state of the league at the moment, we're just wasting our season.

Top 4 is up for grabs and hell even the title is. We've got the most in form striker and goal creator in the league, the best fullbacks, the best CB and just lots of quality all over the pitch. But a weakness mentally is evident and it's leading us to concede sloppy goals and show the fortitude of a wet paper towel.

So anyone questioning Martinez is right to do so. Fair play to him in building this squad, but a bit like Everton in 2009, what's the point if you don't do anything with it? That stat about conceding from all 12 shots on target when leading by a goal and managing to not win a game when taking the lead in the 95th minute, that is just not excusable. It's amateurish and deserves criticism.

Can't disagree with any of that.
It is hugely frustrating that we have so many top class players, but not getting the results. I think it must be a mentality thing. Perhaps because we have such a young team, they don't yet understand what it takes to stop a team that ups a gear in the second half, or how to really finish a team off in a ruthless fashion.

It is unrealistic to expect them to learn how to deal with that over 3 or 4 disappointing results, but if we can keep this squad together next season, we could see the beginnings of something really special.
I still harbour hopes of it gelling soon though, and us making a push for top 4 this season

 

[deipnosophist]

What would be the point of turning up every season?

to entertain

 

[The Mighty Quint]

For me, the last 3 games, the players have gone in at Halftime having blitzed the opposition and thought they only have to turn up 2nd half to win the game.

We have dominated so much the players take the foot off the gas 2nd half and then allow teams back into the game, giving them hope of a result.

It's an attitude thing, and Martinez has done nothing to counter it in the dressing room at Halftime.

 

[davek]

with all due respect mate, what you're saying is keep waiting and it will come, which doesn't equate to Martinez being up to it, which is what you used to say...he was The Man...the doubt is creeping in...it is all going as I have foreseen, we will turn you to the dark side...then DESTROY YOU UTTERLY.


or not.


never underestimate the anger of the dark side

He's been here 2 and a half seasons, he has brought in and/or developed four of the leading talents in European football and a clutch of other players, he has us playing the best football we've witnessed by Everton players for decades, we are 3 points off 5th spot in a very tight top half of the table, we are in the LC SF.

I'd say that the rebuilding process is ALREADY bearing fruit. No other team in this league are capable of the football we play - none. We are on our way and Martinez is the lynchpin to all that.

 

[Prevenger17]

"Leading by 1 goal this season, Everton have faced 12 shots on target. All 12 have gone in"...

Time for Martinez to give Robles a run?

That statistic was proven to be quite false.

 

[hktoffee]

I was a bit frustrated by yesterday's showing, but my expectations on Everton are obviously not as unrealistically high as some others on this forum, as I am certainly not fuming. If we can achieve 7th-11th and get a decent couple of cup runs, Everton has more than met its key performance indicators. Next year I expect the same.

I do think we have a top 6 squad and should be getting top 6. If EFC lower our expectation i.e anything lower than 7th then this club is moving backward since Moyes left.

 

[deipnosophist]

TL;DR for the wall of text I'm going to write, it's frustrating but every premier league side is facing the same problem and we're building something special.

If you look at the change in the last 5 years in the Premier League teams, the wealth of money becomes more and more evident. 2/3 seasons ago Crystal Palace were relying on players like Barry Bannan, West Ham Ravel Morrison and Kevin Nolan, Stoke still had Peter Crouch as one of their main strikers etc. etc. Teams that in the Moyes era would be yo-yo clubs and be reguarly steamrollered by the 'top 4' 6-0 now have money to buy players from teams in Europe that traditionally play in the Europa or even Champion's League - Dimitri Payet, Wjinauldrum, Ogbonna, Shaqiri, Cabaye, Andrew Ayew. These players are using their current teams as stepping stone clubs and I doubt many of them (Cabaye excepted) will be there for that many more years. What this has meant though is that the League is mental. How many times have Manchester City, a team that spent £105 million on 2 players, been reliant on a last minute goal to get them out of sticky situations. Liverpool for all the Kloppmania have huffed and puffed cold. This is simply because the 'middle order', while not having the squad depth of the elite have all got now first XI that, when set up to play on the counter as almost every team other than the top 4 do now, really stick it to the established order.

How to keep hold of those players. If you set yourself as a stepping stone club for waifs and strays e.g. Stoke, then with good performances you acknowledge other clubs may come calling. If you set yourself as a team that can afford large wages in a nice big city for a rich young footballer e.g. West Ham, you might encourage a mercenary attitude that strips team morale. Everton we are trying something different. We tried big names with Samuel Eto'o. We're bringing in - and trusting - in youth. That means more than giving a youth player 5 minutes at the end of an easy win. It's trusting in youth, players still 21, 22 23 and younger - to carry the team, enact the philosophies the manager wishes to view, and so on. The only other team that I think is doing so is Spurs, who have a much higher wage bill, squad depth, and revenue than us, and for all their much deserved celebration will be 6 points at most better than us by the end of today. 6 points in December is far from insurmountable.


This is not to say the last 3 performances have been anything other than immensely frustrating. I was in the crowd for the Palace game and I have no idea how we didn't win it 5-1. However no team currently in the Premier League has got that balance of youth, game management and flair correct. Look at Manchester United, bringing in established internations with a solid defence - how many of them want to play with the old Fergie flair. Look at Arsenal, huge revenue, superstar players, but still losing to teams like WBA and Norwich. How much have Liverpool spent on strikers in 2 years and still don't have an established frontman? We should have won the last 3 games, no doubt. I'm not saying to whitewash it. But in the context of the most evenly matched and frankly unpredictable league in years, it has to be looked in context.

With regards the new goalkeeper, I think one is necessary, and it will probably (for better or worse) be in the summer. I think martinez subscribes to Wenger's philosophy of a few new first team players at a time, keeping wiser heads on for dressing room stability - see Osman and Hibbert, and it's no surprise Osman was crucial to us last season when we were struggling. But that is paying dividends in the understanding and responsibility our young players have together. When we play well, we are one of the most pleasing teams in the premiership, with only Arsenal and City (and possibly Spurs) close to what we can produce. We have a great mixture throughout the team, and it's clear we're building something. And I'm not sure what any other manager at this point would do, other than necessitate a rapid rebuilding of foundations.

The only teams in the world right now that can win every week and do so with flair and style are Barcelon and Bayern Munich. Everyone else is trying to find the balance. I was as frustrated as anyone else last afternoon and I hope we are working on defending set pieces but that doesn't mean that I'm not excited about what's growing here

good post although I'd submit that Everton is as much a stepping stone club as is Stoke. This reality might not sit well with many on here, but nevertheless, it's reality.