Roberto Martinez discussion

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Got back around 11pm last night.

Simply not good enough this team at the moment. I am one of Martinez's biggest fans; i love the way he has us playing, i love ALOT of what he is putting in place at the club as well as nearly all the first team squad.
But this stubborness/shortsightedness (whatever you want to call it) are killing him right now.

1 - The goalkeeper situation. Its simply unacceptable now the Tim Howard situation. Were constantly on the back foot or having to score again because of his inability to command his area. Martinez simply wont drop him which is bordering on ridiculous now and is ruining all his good work and the teams.

2- Practice set pieces ffs.

So frustrating because I think we would be top right now if we had a goalie who borders on anything like a solid keeper.
 

Given the players we have and the state of the league at the moment, we're just wasting our season.

Top 4 is up for grabs and hell even the title is. We've got the most in form striker and goal creator in the league, the best fullbacks, the best CB and just lots of quality all over the pitch. But a weakness mentally is evident and it's leading us to concede sloppy goals and show the fortitude of a wet paper towel.

So anyone questioning Martinez is right to do so. Fair play to him in building this squad, but a bit like Everton in 2009, what's the point if you don't do anything with it? That stat about conceding from all 12 shots on target when leading by a goal and managing to not win a game when taking the lead in the 95th minute, that is just not excusable. It's amateurish and deserves criticism.
 
I'm not saying they're badly run, but I'm not sure their revolving door policy is good for a stable club in the long run.
I think they are badly run if honest
The financial benefits they have is unbelievable, to sack so many managers and only qualify for the CL once is very poor.

All they do is look for quick fixes....
 
It all boils down to this: do you really believe there's a CL spot beckoning one or two outside of the usual CL spot teams in order to be getting all bent out of shape over dropping points over? Imo, there isn't. I'd put us on a par with Liverpool as having an outside chance of overhauling one of United, Arsenal, City and Spurs (who are about a season ahead of us in terms of development). Then you're having to deal with Chelsea who'll likely come with a second half of the season charge. In the end it's not worth knocking yourself out about finishing in places between the likely 6th - 9th spot I see us taking, realistically.

60+ points should be our target for the season, something I've said all season. Coming up toward the half way point, we are slightly off that pace. But that points target is the realistic one for a team still gelling and with the rebuilding on-going. We'd need 70 odd points to clinch a CL spot and it's beyond us at the moment. Our goal this season is to do something in the cups. We've already done very well in that respect, so let's see if we can take it further.

with all due respect mate, what you're saying is keep waiting and it will come, which doesn't equate to Martinez being up to it, which is what you used to say...he was The Man...the doubt is creeping in...it is all going as I have foreseen, we will turn you to the dark side...then DESTROY YOU UTTERLY.


or not.


never underestimate the anger of the dark side
 

Everton are not CL standard. We are a good PL club (7th to 11th imo). A lot of angst will be spared the sooner Evertonians get to grips with this reality. Just lower unrealistic expectations and enjoy watching our team play
 
Not much difference league wise from his first season, better than last but greater potential in the squad I think.
P. W. D. L. F. A. Pts
13/14. 16. 7. 7. 2. 27 17. 29

14/15. 16. 4. 6. 6. 26 24. 18

15/16. 16. 5. 8. 3. 29 21. 23
I know it's only 5 points better than last year but this team is superior.
 
Given the players we have and the state of the league at the moment, we're just wasting our season.

Top 4 is up for grabs and hell even the title is. We've got the most in form striker and goal creator in the league, the best fullbacks, the best CB and just lots of quality all over the pitch. But a weakness mentally is evident and it's leading us to concede sloppy goals and show the fortitude of a wet paper towel.

So anyone questioning Martinez is right to do so. Fair play to him in building this squad, but a bit like Everton in 2009, what's the point if you don't do anything with it? That stat about conceding from all 12 shots on target when leading by a goal and managing to not win a game when taking the lead in the 95th minute, that is just not excusable. It's amateurish and deserves criticism.
Thier is critiscm to be handed out and I have no arguments, but again people think we have a right by turning up to beat the so called lesser teams. This season is the most competitive I have witnessed for a long time, teams are all spending the TV money and most squads are far stronger than 5 years ago. We are witnessing unexpected results on a weekly basis and look at Leicester nobody expected that. Out of the 3 recent draws Bournemouth is the most difficult one to defend, as that was overall sloppy and manager and team all need to take responsibility. Against Palace I think we were unlucky, we dominated a game and woodwork and missed chances cost us. Against Norwich the game should of been put to bed in the first half, it wasn't so it was always going to be difficult in the 2nd half as they were going to change tactics. Against Palace and Norwich we got caught out twice on set pieces, and this is were we need to improve to make a challenge. The mentality you mention is a good point, could that be down to having so many young players in the starting 11 who have all the qualities in footballing terms but not the mental strength...
 

TL;DR for the wall of text I'm going to write, it's frustrating but every premier league side is facing the same problem and we're building something special.

If you look at the change in the last 5 years in the Premier League teams, the wealth of money becomes more and more evident. 2/3 seasons ago Crystal Palace were relying on players like Barry Bannan, West Ham Ravel Morrison and Kevin Nolan, Stoke still had Peter Crouch as one of their main strikers etc. etc. Teams that in the Moyes era would be yo-yo clubs and be reguarly steamrollered by the 'top 4' 6-0 now have money to buy players from teams in Europe that traditionally play in the Europa or even Champion's League - Dimitri Payet, Wjinauldrum, Ogbonna, Shaqiri, Cabaye, Andrew Ayew. These players are using their current teams as stepping stone clubs and I doubt many of them (Cabaye excepted) will be there for that many more years. What this has meant though is that the League is mental. How many times have Manchester City, a team that spent £105 million on 2 players, been reliant on a last minute goal to get them out of sticky situations. Liverpool for all the Kloppmania have huffed and puffed cold. This is simply because the 'middle order', while not having the squad depth of the elite have all got now first XI that, when set up to play on the counter as almost every team other than the top 4 do now, really stick it to the established order.

How to keep hold of those players. If you set yourself as a stepping stone club for waifs and strays e.g. Stoke, then with good performances you acknowledge other clubs may come calling. If you set yourself as a team that can afford large wages in a nice big city for a rich young footballer e.g. West Ham, you might encourage a mercenary attitude that strips team morale. Everton we are trying something different. We tried big names with Samuel Eto'o. We're bringing in - and trusting - in youth. That means more than giving a youth player 5 minutes at the end of an easy win. It's trusting in youth, players still 21, 22 23 and younger - to carry the team, enact the philosophies the manager wishes to view, and so on. The only other team that I think is doing so is Spurs, who have a much higher wage bill, squad depth, and revenue than us, and for all their much deserved celebration will be 6 points at most better than us by the end of today. 6 points in December is far from insurmountable.


This is not to say the last 3 performances have been anything other than immensely frustrating. I was in the crowd for the Palace game and I have no idea how we didn't win it 5-1. However no team currently in the Premier League has got that balance of youth, game management and flair correct. Look at Manchester United, bringing in established internations with a solid defence - how many of them want to play with the old Fergie flair. Look at Arsenal, huge revenue, superstar players, but still losing to teams like WBA and Norwich. How much have Liverpool spent on strikers in 2 years and still don't have an established frontman? We should have won the last 3 games, no doubt. I'm not saying to whitewash it. But in the context of the most evenly matched and frankly unpredictable league in years, it has to be looked in context.

With regards the new goalkeeper, I think one is necessary, and it will probably (for better or worse) be in the summer. I think martinez subscribes to Wenger's philosophy of a few new first team players at a time, keeping wiser heads on for dressing room stability - see Osman and Hibbert, and it's no surprise Osman was crucial to us last season when we were struggling. But that is paying dividends in the understanding and responsibility our young players have together. When we play well, we are one of the most pleasing teams in the premiership, with only Arsenal and City (and possibly Spurs) close to what we can produce. We have a great mixture throughout the team, and it's clear we're building something. And I'm not sure what any other manager at this point would do, other than necessitate a rapid rebuilding of foundations.

The only teams in the world right now that can win every week and do so with flair and style are Barcelon and Bayern Munich. Everyone else is trying to find the balance. I was as frustrated as anyone else last afternoon and I hope we are working on defending set pieces but that doesn't mean that I'm not excited about what's growing here
 
"Leading by 1 goal this season, Everton have faced 12 shots on target. All 12 have gone in"...
howard3-1.png


Time for Martinez to give Robles a run?
 
TL;DR for the wall of text I'm going to write, it's frustrating but every premier league side is facing the same problem and we're building something special.

If you look at the change in the last 5 years in the Premier League teams, the wealth of money becomes more and more evident. 2/3 seasons ago Crystal Palace were relying on players like Barry Bannan, West Ham Ravel Morrison and Kevin Nolan, Stoke still had Peter Crouch as one of their main strikers etc. etc. Teams that in the Moyes era would be yo-yo clubs and be reguarly steamrollered by the 'top 4' 6-0 now have money to buy players from teams in Europe that traditionally play in the Europa or even Champion's League - Dimitri Payet, Wjinauldrum, Ogbonna, Shaqiri, Cabaye, Andrew Ayew. These players are using their current teams as stepping stone clubs and I doubt many of them (Cabaye excepted) will be there for that many more years. What this has meant though is that the League is mental. How many times have Manchester City, a team that spent £105 million on 2 players, been reliant on a last minute goal to get them out of sticky situations. Liverpool for all the Kloppmania have huffed and puffed cold. This is simply because the 'middle order', while not having the squad depth of the elite have all got now first XI that, when set up to play on the counter as almost every team other than the top 4 do now, really stick it to the established order.

How to keep hold of those players. If you set yourself as a stepping stone club for waifs and strays e.g. Stoke, then with good performances you acknowledge other clubs may come calling. If you set yourself as a team that can afford large wages in a nice big city for a rich young footballer e.g. West Ham, you might encourage a mercenary attitude that strips team morale. Everton we are trying something different. We tried big names with Samuel Eto'o. We're bringing in - and trusting - in youth. That means more than giving a youth player 5 minutes at the end of an easy win. It's trusting in youth, players still 21, 22 23 and younger - to carry the team, enact the philosophies the manager wishes to view, and so on. The only other team that I think is doing so is Spurs, who have a much higher wage bill, squad depth, and revenue than us, and for all their much deserved celebration will be 6 points at most better than us by the end of today. 6 points in December is far from insurmountable.


This is not to say the last 3 performances have been anything other than immensely frustrating. I was in the crowd for the Palace game and I have no idea how we didn't win it 5-1. However no team currently in the Premier League has got that balance of youth, game management and flair correct. Look at Manchester United, bringing in established internations with a solid defence - how many of them want to play with the old Fergie flair. Look at Arsenal, huge revenue, superstar players, but still losing to teams like WBA and Norwich. How much have Liverpool spent on strikers in 2 years and still don't have an established frontman? We should have won the last 3 games, no doubt. I'm not saying to whitewash it. But in the context of the most evenly matched and frankly unpredictable league in years, it has to be looked in context.

With regards the new goalkeeper, I think one is necessary, and it will probably (for better or worse) be in the summer. I think martinez subscribes to Wenger's philosophy of a few new first team players at a time, keeping wiser heads on for dressing room stability - see Osman and Hibbert, and it's no surprise Osman was crucial to us last season when we were struggling. But that is paying dividends in the understanding and responsibility our young players have together. When we play well, we are one of the most pleasing teams in the premiership, with only Arsenal and City (and possibly Spurs) close to what we can produce. We have a great mixture throughout the team, and it's clear we're building something. And I'm not sure what any other manager at this point would do, other than necessitate a rapid rebuilding of foundations.

The only teams in the world right now that can win every week and do so with flair and style are Barcelon and Bayern Munich. Everyone else is trying to find the balance. I was as frustrated as anyone else last afternoon and I hope we are working on defending set pieces but that doesn't mean that I'm not excited about what's growing here


Well said mate, a bit of sense amongst a sea of knee jerking fume.
 
What would be the point of turning up every season?
If you expect CL football and silverware every season, i think you maybe supporting the wrong team.

Look at our record since the mid 80's, not a great deal to shout about.

We have a shout this season for a CL place, but it is just a shout not a given right

I don't think we should accept mediocrity, but we have to be realistic
 
With the finances Spurs have at their disposal they should be in the CL on a regular basis, they are light years away from us in spending power.
Not getting in the CL they have gone on this merry go round if managers, and spent fortunes each time they have got a new man. They last won something in 2008 (league Cup) and for a club with the finances they have at their disposal that is pretty poor. this lack of silverware has created a regime of sacking managers in the hope to find the right man, they look as if they have found the right man at this present moment...but ther is a list of failed managers.
I firmly don't believe we have the finances to jump on that merry go round, and if honest would rather build than look for quick fixes
Pretty sure they have a lower net spend than us.
 

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