Roberto Martinez discussion

deipnosophist · December 13, 2015

I was a bit frustrated by yesterday's showing, but my expectations on Everton are obviously not as unrealistically high as some others on this forum, as I am certainly not fuming. If we can achieve 7th-11th and get a decent couple of cup runs, Everton has more than met its key performance indicators. Next year I expect the same.

BlueAmigo · December 13, 2015

strummer said:
Id like to balance my last negative post with a positive one . we're playing some of the best football seen at this club in 30 years. The 1st half yesterday was a joy to watch

I'm loving some of the football on display, its just frustrating that we can't put teams to the sword earlier. I think the fact we can't kill games invites pressure on ourselves and the mistakes get punished. The other problem, and fundamental one seems to be organisation at the back, and set pieces. I'd hope that senior players like jags or baines would have a word, I'm sure the boss is more approachable than Moyes. Then again senior players ought to use their weight to ensure everyone remains focused on the pitch, free headers are unforgivable. Oh for a Roy Keane in this squad.

Groucho · December 13, 2015

A bit of off-topicness thought the night there, please do stay on topic in the Everton forum folks, and avoid bickering in general.

Thanks.

Lowste · December 13, 2015

degsy said:
see the post I was replying to
the ale won't work mate...those who understand etc etc.
still go with the ales though its never a bad idea.

The ale gets me through the weekends, Everton without ale can be a struggle

Lowste · December 13, 2015

deipnosophist said:
I was a bit frustrated by yesterday's showing, but my expectations on Everton are obviously not as unrealistically high as some others on this forum, as I am certainly not fuming. If we can achieve 7th-11th and get a decent couple of cup runs, Everton has more than met its key performance indicators. Next year I expect the same.

My expectations are slightly higher than yours, but I sit in the same camp as you.
Cup runs are a great bonus and finishing between 5th & 8th would be a good leveller.
Expecting CL is to much, but in fairness we could be around 4 th now

Groucho · December 13, 2015

Lowste said:
The ale gets me through the weekends, Everton without ale can be a struggle

Ruining Saturday since 1878.

Would it be difficult to justify sacking Martinez without running the risk of turning into the managerial merry-go-round that is Spurs? We're 6 points from 4th and in a semi - might be a bit harsh to give him the elbow, for now at least. I know the "Martinez out" shouts aren't as pronounced as this time last season.

deipnosophist · December 13, 2015

Groucho said:
Ruining Saturday since 1878.

Would it be difficult to justify sacking Martinez without running the risk of turning into the managerial merry-go-round that is Spurs? We're 6 points from 4th and in a semi - might be a bit harsh to give him the elbow, for now at least. I know the "Martinez out" shouts aren't as pronounced as this time last season.

lol lol

Eric Djemba-Djemba · December 13, 2015

Groucho said:
Ruining Saturday since 1878.

Would it be difficult to justify sacking Martinez without running the risk of turning into the managerial merry-go-round that is Spurs? We're 6 points from 4th and in a semi - might be a bit harsh to give him the elbow, for now at least. I know the "Martinez out" shouts aren't as pronounced as this time last season.

Don't understand why people use Spurs as an example of a badly run club. Haven't they qualified for Europe for like the last 6 seasons? Finishing 4th twice. A lot better than us.

Groucho · December 13, 2015

Eric Djemba-Djemba said:
Don't understand why people use Spurs as an example of a badly run club. Haven't they qualified for Europe for like the last 6 seasons? Finishing 4th twice. A lot better than us.

I'm not saying they're badly run, but I'm not sure their revolving door policy is good for a stable club in the long run.

Lowste · December 13, 2015

degsy said:
[QUOTE="LinekersLegs, post: 4038265, member: 24162" flail around looking for a new one

see what I did there.
by editing my post you took the end bit out of context to enhance your view.

my point was how long are we going to be saying...lets wait until these first 10 'hard' games are over
Now it's wait until the end of Jan, pretty soon there will be no more time left to wait and it will be. lets see how we do in the window and get the first 'x' games out of the way and off we go again.

so to address your point Re. 'Flail around', which I didn't say, mention or imply, but if I were discussing 'changes' they would not and need not be of the flail around variety.

Slight change in emphasis, a few tweaks, a tune up...what I call 'The Goldilocks Option'
not too much Moyes, not too much Martinez, but just right.
If Martinez can't or won't change and we remain in contention for the 7th-ish Trophy.
Then it goes along way to confirming my point which is

Martinez is just a Catalan version of bang average, a different flavour to Moyes but with the same or poorer end result.

my other point, oft stated, is that unless we go totally Mike Walker or there is a major boardroom shake up, is that He, like Moyes before him, has a job for life.

Clear enough?...Now that's my FULL context.[/QUOTE]
I have agreed in the past on what you call the Goldilocks option, at this moment in time we could do with the disciplines of Moyes at the back....but just there nowhere else.
My issue with your post is that you appear to want to get rid of RM as you think he is just another mediocre version of Moyes. I don't always agree with Kenwright but I do like the stability he gives the manager, giving the manager longevity gives the manager time to build a squad and also build the future of the club through the academy. I am not supportive of changing managers everytime they have a bad run of games or even a bad season, simply because it unbalances the club and also a dangerous path to go down.
We need to remember we are not a rich club in anyway so we don't have this luxury of sacking managers then giving them fortunes to build squads, we need to build squads with a balanced and mid to long term approach.
To clarify I am surmising you didn't like Moyes
Is RM the man to lead us to CL and silverware, I have no real idea but he is getting a good percentage of things right. As you say he he needs to fine tune certain areas.......the back four

Bluetintedspecs · December 13, 2015

degsy said:
Our relationship with 'sexy football' seems to be a quick 45min fling once a week.

More like premature ejaculation, mate.

degsy · December 13, 2015

Groucho said:
Ruining Saturday since 1878.

Would it be difficult to justify sacking Martinez without running the risk of turning into the managerial merry-go-round that is Spurs? True-ish , but not if we get the right one, which tbf is the hard part
We're 6 points from 4th strangely enough we have just butchered, squandered, lost, threw away, bottled 6pts and in a semi - might be a bit harsh to give him the elbow, for now at least. I know the "Martinez out" shouts aren't as pronounced as this time last season. our winter of discontent was only just starting this time 12 months ago, which culminated in the QPR game [/QUOTE]

sorry mate he's the problem not the cure, kudos for Del and Rom, maybe Barry, McCarthy and Cleverly.

Lowste · December 13, 2015

Eric Djemba-Djemba said:
Don't understand why people use Spurs as an example of a badly run club. Haven't they qualified for Europe for like the last 6 seasons? Finishing 4th twice. A lot better than us.

With the finances Spurs have at their disposal they should be in the CL on a regular basis, they are light years away from us in spending power.
Not getting in the CL they have gone on this merry go round if managers, and spent fortunes each time they have got a new man. They last won something in 2008 (league Cup) and for a club with the finances they have at their disposal that is pretty poor. this lack of silverware has created a regime of sacking managers in the hope to find the right man, they look as if they have found the right man at this present moment...but ther is a list of failed managers.
I firmly don't believe we have the finances to jump on that merry go round, and if honest would rather build than look for quick fixes

davek · December 13, 2015

Ashtonian said:
see the way I look at it is the cost of martinez leaving. If you knew he would never progress the club then perhaps you could say fair enough but without hindsight it's just one of those things. We are struggling to win the easier games and have issues in defence, think that is a no brainer. But the playoff of that is the young exciting attack we have. Would another manager have identified quality players like besic/del? championed stones so much? Moyes certainly wouldn't have given Ross the freedom he has now, nor would players like Galloway be trusted to play a role based on actually having a good game.

The game vs palace I thought offensively we were brilliant, especially against a defensive team, the link up between players was great to see and we did cause problems at a high tempo. The other side was the clear lack of training on set pieces which cost us the win, not the first goal scored that way. It was almost like the game was the microcosm of Everton this season, clear weaknesses exploited and a threatening attack.

If we could just go 10 games winning the easier games and not throwing soft goals away then the season would change dramatically. If we had won the last three then the table would look completely different! I can go to Chelsea and have hazard beat three players and score the winner and be able to say fair enough. But at the same time the what ifs will look back at this period of time, especially if it is the difference between a great season and a solid one.

The team have two chances next month to sort the season out though, I hope that's not our only positives for the season.

It all boils down to this: do you really believe there's a CL spot beckoning one or two outside of the usual CL spot teams in order to be getting all bent out of shape over dropping points over? Imo, there isn't. I'd put us on a par with Liverpool as having an outside chance of overhauling one of United, Arsenal, City and Spurs (who are about a season ahead of us in terms of development). Then you're having to deal with Chelsea who'll likely come with a second half of the season charge. In the end it's not worth knocking yourself out about finishing in places between the likely 6th - 9th spot I see us taking, realistically.

60+ points should be our target for the season, something I've said all season. Coming up toward the half way point, we are slightly off that pace. But that points target is the realistic one for a team still gelling and with the rebuilding on-going. We'd need 70 odd points to clinch a CL spot and it's beyond us at the moment. Our goal this season is to do something in the cups. We've already done very well in that respect, so let's see if we can take it further.