Roberto Martinez discussion

[Lowste]

Are people really still banging on in here?! The manager isn't going anywhere.

Whether you want him to or not, I beleive just about everyone has made their say clear now.

I agree mate

Forum was better when this thread was closed

 

[davek]

tell Jose that...

...but he was done by his season long stats. Career wise he was fine, but this season he (or his players no show) got himself the bullet.

 

[Ihaters]

martinez is a big star wars fan and so has not been concentrating properly as he has been so excited, now he's seen the film he will drop howard and practice set pieces

I would actually forgive him for most of the things we got wrong lately if he came out and said this.

 

[ijjysmith]

I agree mate

Forum was better when this thread was closed

Possibly some truth in this.

You either want him as manager or you don't. Maybe it should just be the poll?

I don't know. I don't even know why I care. Why am I even typing this? What is love? Baby don't hurt me.

 

[catcherintherye]

How isn't it arbitrary to pick a point weeks ago from no obvious point of departure (other than it suits the point you want to make?

Judge Martinez on form and stats by all means. But the usual method is to use season long or career long readings. On those metrics Martinez is fine. Which maybe is why it isn't used.

I think people's point would be they would judge him come Christmas of this year though after last season. I think in reality we should judge him after 19 games and we've played everyone once (as we have two sides in the Bottom half who we may well take 6 points from).

As it stand we are currently at a 6 out of 10 performance. Disappointing but not disastrous and still an opportunity to turn things around. I don't think anything has been majorly resolved. All I've concluded is in all likelihood we are probably best to judge it near the end of the season. I have not been won round to him being our saviour, nor should he be sacked tomorrow.

If people are honest they'd say we are better than last season but worse than the 1st season. Our next month or so is going to be critical though. If we can get ourselves on a run we could very easily be in the top 6 and in a cup final against two sides I'd expect us to beat. Alternatively we could be out of all cup competitions and in 13/14th.

It is a very tight league, the difference between 13th-4th is minimal. What makes it difficult for us is they are kind of the tipping points for our judgement of Martinez. He gets one he'd be a genius, he does the other and he arguably should be relieved of his duties. It is a very fine line that we shouldn't try to exacerbate hyperbole.

 

[Lowste]

Possibly some truth in this.

You either want him as manager or you don't. Maybe it should just be the poll?

I don't know. I don't even know why I care. Why am I even typing this? What is love? Baby don't hurt me.

I think you are right over the poll
Both sides of the argument have valid points, so as you say it comes down to if you want him or not.

 

[ianefc]

What are you bothered about other clubs for? They'll go through ups and downs like we will. In fact you've just underlined my point for me.

I'm not, you are using their current form as a bench mark. I'm sure you used Spurs and UTD' season and current points tally the other day, don't be a hypocrite.

 

[davek]

There is nothing new to say just Dave failing to acknowledge the last 18 months hasn't been great. It'll continue that way probably.

Generalities observed from a defined period...again.

The last season and a half have brought good things as well as bad things...unless, of course, you dont like to watch exciting attacking football and want to be in touching distance of a cup final.

 

[davek]

I'm not, you are using their current form as a bench mark. I'm sure you used Spurs and UTD' season and current points tally the other day, don't be a hypocrite.

And that's a contradiction from what I wrote in what way?

It's always best to read what's actually there rather than dive in and react to what you think is there.

 

[Fletch]

I think the overriding thing is the disappointment, only when I was a manager myself of a semi-pro outfit I would lie awake at night thinking, if only so and so had squared the ball to X then we would have won in the last minuet etc etc.

This seems to be a season of "what you could have done" my biggest worry is that RM isn't learning quick enough to make changes, try something different, drop players who aren't performing. If we end up mid table then we are going to struggle to keep Stones and Lukaku.

 

[Ihaters]

Generalities observed from a defined period...again.

The last season and a half have brought good things as well as bad things...unless, of course, you dont like to watch exciting attacking football and want to be in touching distance of a cup final.

Dave, people are allowed to look at a bad run in isolation.. Why its gone the way it has, what can be done to resolve it etc.. and you know what.. it is a bad run.

Isolated runs are talked about all the time in fact.. hell there's even an award handed out every month for the best manager of that month. Lukaku may be on the way to a record breaking isolated run, must we wait for the end of the season before we are allowed to mention that and in the context of the whole season.. scored 20 in the season as opposed to scoring in every game for 10 games?

Football is lived and breathed in the moment, and currently the moment is not great, and hasn't been for an extended period. When we turn a corner, we can start talking about the extended period of good times he's bringing.. completely out of context too.. and you know what.. that will be okay too.

 

[davek]

I think people's point would be they would judge him come Christmas of this year though after last season. I think in reality we should judge him after 19 games and we've played everyone once (as we have two sides in the Bottom half who we may well take 6 points from).

As it stand we are currently at a 6 out of 10 performance. Disappointing but not disastrous and still an opportunity to turn things around. I don't think anything has been majorly resolved. All I've concluded is in all likelihood we are probably best to judge it near the end of the season. I have not been won round to him being our saviour, nor should he be sacked tomorrow.

If people are honest they'd say we are better than last season but worse than the 1st season. Our next month or so is going to be critical though. If we can get ourselves on a run we could very easily be in the top 6 and in a cup final against two sides I'd expect us to beat. Alternatively we could be out of all cup competitions and in 13/14th.

It is a very tight league, the difference between 13th-4th is minimal. What makes it difficult for us is they are kind of the tipping points for our judgement of Martinez. He gets one he'd be a genius, he does the other and he arguably should be relieved of his duties. It is a very fine line that we shouldn't try to exacerbate hyperbole.

Yes, it's all to play for points and position wise.

I actually think we are much more advanced than the first season Martinez was here. The football we play is far superior and only one position is truly letting the whole system down: GK.

There's definite progression here and only super-empiricists cant work that out because they're busy laying statistical traps for the team and manager to fall over and to undermine them.

This team is within a player of a breakthrough. No question of that.

 

[davek]

I'm not, you are using their current form as a bench mark. I'm sure you used Spurs and UTD' season and current points tally the other day, don't be a hypocrite.

ian, I've figured you out: you're a contrarian. You dont deal in reason, just in countering someone else's argument with its opposite, regardless of what that is.

 

[Lanolin]

Of course I mean career readings at Everton. It's an Everton forum, why would I bring in irrelevant data from another club...including a cup win, btw?

Look, current form is ok for musing: here's one for you - the current PL form guide has Leicester, Palace, Watford and Bournemouth 1 to 4 in their table. But you're not going to conclude that they'll end up there are you?

Form is interesting as a guide, but it's not anything you can draw big conclusions from.

But why would you mention a cup win at a previous club where you've just said his record is irrelevant?

I get that you're just a caricature poster, taking an exaggerated stance in order to create debate. It can sometimes be fun to watch so I don't normally like to disagree with you, but unfortunately it's clear that some people take what you say seriously & so occasionally I feel the need to point out that your argument doesn't hold water. This is one of those times. We both know that there is a big difference between the last 6 games and the last 50 when looking for indicators of performance.

I've said numerous times that I wouldn't want Martinez to be sacked, and that I don't think this season has been a disaster. It has clearly been a disappointment so far though, and I think the performance since last season started, when allied to the manager's record at his previous club, makes a decent case for saying he's not the man to take us forward. Were we to have a huge upturn in form over the next 5 months, I would be more than happy to point to the stats over this period to say that he deserved longer in the job.

 

[davek]

Dave, people are allowed to look at a bad run in isolation.. Why its gone the way it has, what can be done to resolve it etc.. and you know what.. it is a bad run.

Isolated runs are talked about all the time in fact.. hell there's even an award handed out every month for the best manager of that month. Lukaku may be on the way to a record breaking isolated run, must we wait for the end of the season before we are allowed to mention that and in the context of the whole season.. scored 20 in the season as opposed to scoring in every game for 10 games?

Football is lived and breathed in the moment, and currently the moment is not great, and hasn't been for an extended period. When we turn a corner, we can start talking about the extended period of good times he's bringing.. completely out of context too.. and you know what.. that will be okay too.

I agree. I do employ current form data myself. But I think I know the difference between a short run trend and the overarching trajectory of an organisation.

That's the rub here.