Roberto Martinez discussion

meagher94 · December 21, 2015

Saint Domingo said:
We've had five transfer windows to address that.

He has but that's another issue. Talking of the teams we have now, Tottenham's is probably better because of their keeper.

davek · December 21, 2015

Lanolin said:
I'm not disagreeing with your overall point, but I don't understand people's obsession with disparaging Ian's stats. They're not arbitrary at all, they are highlighting our most recent form. If Lukaku doesn't score in his next 50 games for us, he will still have a reasonable record of 1 in 3. Would that stop us from criticising his record in that period? Absolutely not. I'm not sure why that should not be true of the manager.

If we win the next 10 in a row, I will happily use that as evidence that he has improved us. Using a fixed point in the past to start measuring from is a fairly standard way of analysing performance. Obviously you shouldn't completely ignore what has happened in the past, but it seems fair to use more recent form as an indicator of current levels.

How isn't it arbitrary to pick a point weeks ago from no obvious point of departure (other than it suits the point you want to make?

Judge Martinez on form and stats by all means. But the usual method is to use season long or career long readings. On those metrics Martinez is fine. Which maybe is why it isn't used.

davek · December 21, 2015

Saint Domingo said:
Do you think the first part of that equation is good enough currently? 6 points is 1/10th of your entire seasons target. That's not touching distance, not for a team that has failed to win back to back for a long period. Shame as we have some fantastic players yet the likes of Spurs and Leicester are putting in credible top 4 challenges.

6 points off CL is very reasonable halfway through the season and at the end of a recent run of games that's yielded only 3 points. It suggests to me we've had our downturn and will soon expect to pick up points again to narrow that gap. BTW, others are obsessing over CL spots, not me. My view is clear: we cant get the 70+ points required. And it's also reasonable in that we've also had a fruitful run in the cup and have a chance of a Wembley appearance.

As said in the other thread (and taking the quality of football we've witnessed), based on the above, my first half of the season ratings for the manager is 7/10.

Saint Domingo · December 21, 2015

meagher94 said:
He has but that's another issue. Talking of the teams we have now, Tottenham's is probably better because of their keeper.

Undoubtedly, which is why they're higher in the table and mounting a credible top 4 challenge.

Lanolin · December 21, 2015

davek said:
How isn't it arbitrary to pick a point weeks ago from no obvious point of departure (other than it suits the point you want to make?

Judge Martinez on form and stats by all means. But the usual method is to use season long or career long readings. On those metrics Martinez is fine. Which maybe is why it isn't used.

That isn't true though is it? As i've already said, it would be totally normal to say we were in good form because we'd won 10 in a row. Even if we'd lost 10 in a row beforehand. And do you really want to go down the road of 'career long' readings for Martinez? Really? I don't think that's what you mean is it? You mean 'current term of employment' readings. Which is just as arbitrary as any other stats.

Saint Domingo · December 21, 2015

davek said:
6 points off CL is very reasonable halfway through the season and at the end of a recent run of games that's yielded only 3 points. It suggests to me we've had our downturn and will soon expect to pick up points again to narrow that gap. BTW, others are obsessing over CL spots, not me. My view is clear: we cant get the 70+ points required. And it's also reasonable in that we've also had a fruitful run in the cup and have a chance of a Wembley appearance.

As said in the other thread (and taking the quality of football we've witnessed), based on the above, my first half of the season ratings for the manager is 7/10.

Why can't we get the 70 point mark when a similar group of players surpassed it two seasons ago? We probably can't get it now, but it was not impossible st the start of the season. I too am hoping for an upturn in results in the second half of the season but in my view not capitalising when playing well was foolish. Against Leicester unlike the Palace game the performance wasn't even there.

davek · December 21, 2015

ianefc said:
So he gets an easy time of it beccause other teams are underperforming also. Nothing but the best unless some of the others are crap.

That makes no sense whatsoever. How is he getting an easy time of it when we're handily pl;aced this season in both PL and LC so far, and how is it giving him an easy time on his career here so far when he's got a very decent win record?

Maybe you'd wish it not for it to be so, but they are indeed the only salient facts - regardless of your desperate series of sub-groupings of arbitrary periods of measurement.

ianefc · December 21, 2015

davek said:
How isn't it arbitrary to pick a point weeks ago from no obvious point of departure (other than it suits the point you want to make?

Judge Martinez on form and stats by all means. But the usual method is to use season long or career long readings. On those metrics Martinez is fine. Which maybe is why it isn't used.

I did use a season long run of stats, I used the calender year, Newcastle will be our 37th league game of the year, thats more or less a season and we have won 12 games. When you allow from that mini run of form when we beat Newcastle, UTD, QPR and Southampton in April time to make sure we didn't get inot a relegation battle, that really does make slim pickings for the other 11 months, doesn't it? Half way through last season, around this time, all you did was bang on about 13/14 and the record points total, now becaise the previous season doesn't aid your Martinez argument its 'offf the table'

orly · December 21, 2015

ianefc said:
I did use a season long run of stats, I used the calender year, Newcastle will be our 37th league game of the year, thats more or less a season and we have won 12 games. When you allow from that mini run of form when we beat Newcastle, UTD, QPR and Southampton in April time to make sure we didn't get inot a relegation battle, that really does make slim pickings for the other 11 months, doesn't it? Half way through last season, around this time, all you did was bang on about 13/14 and the record points total, now becaise the previous season doesn't aid your Martinez argument its 'offf the table'

You've got him on the ropes again here @ianefc , go in for the kill

davek · December 21, 2015

Saint Domingo said:
Why can't we get the 70 point mark when a similar group of players surpassed it two seasons ago? We probably can't get it now, but it was not impossible st the start of the season. I too am hoping for an upturn in results in the second half of the season but in my view not capitalising when playing well was foolish. Against Leicester unlike the Palace game the performance wasn't even there.

Because his first season here was out of this world with a group of players we had. No one had the right to expect that feat. It was incredible as a first season for any new manager and it'll never be repeated until we get a lot of investment. Just our luck that the CL requirement that season was so high.

davek · December 21, 2015

ianefc said:
I did use a season long run of stats, I used the calender year, Newcastle will be our 37th league game of the year, thats more or less a season and we have won 12 games. When you allow from that mini run of form when we beat Newcastle, UTD, QPR and Southampton in April time to make sure we didn't get inot a relegation battle, that really does make slim pickings for the other 11 months, doesn't it? Half way through last season, around this time, all you did was bang on about 13/14 and the record points total, now becaise the previous season doesn't aid your Martinez argument its 'offf the table'

It's not the football calendar is it?

Ihaters · December 21, 2015

Actually the norm for showing form is as below:

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/matchday/form-guide.html

We are 13th in the current form guide

ianefc · December 21, 2015

davek said:
That makes no sense whatsoever. How is he getting an easy time of it when we're handily pl;aced this season in both PL and LC so far, and how is it giving him an easy time on his career here so far when he's got a very decent win record?

Maybe you'd wish it not for it to be so, but they are indeed the only salient facts - regardless of your desperate series of sub-groupings of arbitrary periods of measurement.

Again we are thankful that Spurs have Drawn too many games and UTD haven't won in 7, we were 6 points behind UTD a few weeks ago with Liecester, Norwich, Palace and Bournemouth coming up, UTD havn't won in 7 games, their fans are fuming and want rid, yet we are still 6 points behind them.

ijjysmith · December 21, 2015

Are people really still banging on in here?! The manager isn't going anywhere.

Whether you want him to or not, I beleive just about everyone has made their say clear now.

zandvoort blue · December 21, 2015

davek said:
How isn't it arbitrary to pick a point weeks ago from no obvious point of departure (other than it suits the point you want to make?

Judge Martinez on form and stats by all means. But the usual method is to use season long or career long readings. On those metrics Martinez is fine. Which maybe is why it isn't used.

tell Jose that...