Who can't handle it?

[kenada_blue]

I only said I would listen to offers - they would have to be a bit inflated - but £12-15 m. for each of Arteta and Lescott and I would sell. The first I would do would be to give him a chance as the deep schemer defensive midfielder - like Essien, Pirlo, De Rossi (and Redondo - the ultimate defensive midfielder). Neither player would be described as a tackling tough midfielder, but a great passer of the ball and shielding the defense by playing the ball out of danger.
To me Arteta does not look like he is enjoying playing here anymore, and thats the reason I would sell. Maybe I'm a bit hard on him, but he really is one of the players with the talent to have a consistently high level week in week out and when he is sort of just filling up a midfield place I find it frustrating.

I think we're not in a position to start selling our key players and bed in new ones (espeically in the January window etc), its all about improving what we've got. Listening to offers only unsettles the players.

I do think Arteta should be pulled into the middle and begin centrally. When he's marked out of a game its harder for a winger to be involved so he'll fade out. We sometimes just give him the ball and say "do something" but most of the time he's that closely marked, he cant do anything.

Being in the middle means he's involved for the entire 90 minutes. Being marked out of a game there only allows players around him more freedom on the wings, for the strikers, to fill the spaces. His vision also would benifit that position. Hopefully Moyes sees this and begins the "changes" he's talking about.

But...with the money, getting hold of an Essien etc is a very very hard task for a club like us, and what we found this summer. Either club profile, wages, transfer fee, all play a factor for players like Essien or a Loric Cana etc to snub us so we have to search and look deep for players.

My big gripe if I'm being honest isnt Arteta but the Yak. If there was a bigger example of someone fading out of big games its him.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

I think we're not in a position to start selling our key players and bed in new ones (espeically in the January window etc), its all about improving what we've got. Listening to offers only unsettles the players.

I do think Arteta should be pulled into the middle and begin centrally. When he's marked out of a game its harder for a winger to be involved so he'll fade out. We sometimes just give him the ball and say "do something" but most of the time he's that closely marked, he cant do anything.

Being in the middle means he's involved for the entire 90 minutes. Being marked out of a game there only allows players around him more freedom on the wings, for the strikers, to fill the spaces. His vision also would benifit that position. Hopefully Moyes sees this and begins the "changes" he's talking about.

But...with the money, getting hold of an Essien etc is a very very hard task for a club like us, and what we found this summer. Either club profile, wages, transfer fee, all play a factor for players like Essien or a Loric Cana etc to snub us so we have to search and look deep for players.

My big gripe if I'm being honest isnt Arteta but the Yak. If there was a bigger example of someone fading out of big games its him.

There's a difference though. Arteta is in midfield, it's his job to make things happen. Yakubu can only work with what he's got, at the moment he's not getting alot in terms of creativity.

Arteta does need to get involved more, Yakubu needs to work harder. I don't buy this "they want out or "they don't care" bollocks. Evertonians seem to say that about every player who isn't playing well.

Arteta just needs to be moved around a bit more so he has to get involved. He's one of those players that needs to be involved constantly, if he's stuck out on the right wing all game he'll dissapear. He should be interchanged left, right and centre more so he sees more of the ball.

Yakubu is Yakubu, he just needs the ball to feet. At the moment he's getting it to his head and it isn't working. I'd say he needs to put himself about a bit more though.

 

[kenada_blue]

There's a difference though. Arteta is in midfield, it's his job to make things happen. Yakubu can only work with what he's got, at the moment he's not getting alot in terms of creativity.

Arteta does need to get involved more, Yakubu needs to work harder. I don't buy this "they want out or "they don't care" bollocks. Evertonians seem to say that about every player who isn't playing well.

Arteta just needs to be moved around a bit more so he has to get involved. He's one of those players that needs to be involved constantly, if he's stuck out on the right wing all game he'll dissapear. He should be interchanged left, right and centre more so he sees more of the ball.

Yakubu is Yakubu, he just needs the ball to feet. At the moment he's getting it to his head and it isn't working. I'd say he needs to put himself about a bit more though.

So you mean more of a free role? I could see that working just as long as other players slide into the positions he's left.

My big thing with the Yak is his ability to hold up the ball. He's on his own as a forward but sometimes either wants to turn and run at defenders with the ball with no one in support before losing the ball or he looses the ball easily. He can hold the ball up well and for some reason does it superbly when Cahill is sitting behind him. But lately he's not been doing it.

Saha on the other hand, when he's come on, looks as though he can hold the ball up but also turn and beat defenders, he's got a bit more pace.

Also, if we're playing the long ball Saha or Vaughan would benifit more from some Fellaini knock downs. It was working with Yak and Fellaini against Arsenal but for that extra pace behind the defence those two would be a better option.

I'd like to see Saha start against Manure.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

So you mean more of a free role? I could see that working just as long as other players slide into the positions he's left.

My big thing with the Yak is his ability to hold up the ball. He's on his own as a forward but sometimes either wants to turn and run at defenders with the ball with no one in support before losing the ball or he looses the ball easily. He can hold the ball up well and for some reason does it superbly when Cahill is sitting behind him. But lately he's not been doing it.

Saha on the other hand, when he's come on, looks as though he can hold the ball up but also turn and beat defenders, he's got a bit more pace.

Also, if we're playing the long ball Saha or Vaughan would benifit more from some Fellaini knock downs. It was working with Yak and Fellaini against Arsenal but for that extra pace behind the defence those two would be a better option.

I'd like to see Saha start against Manure.

Not really a free role, just interchaning between three positions during periods in the game. 20 minutes on the right, 25 minutes on the left and 45 minutes in the middle etc. He's got his limits as a player, I think we all know that but Arteta is very talented. We need to get him as involved as possible. If Moyes sticks him to the right wing all game that won't happen.

We have three adaptable players in Arteta, Osman and Pienaar and we'd a much more unpredictable side if Moyes continually moved them around. We'd be able to hurt teams in different ways.

I agree on Yakubu, as of late he just hasn't been at his best. Some of it because of the lack of service and some of it just don't to concentration and him having lapses in concentration.

When he's on his game his link up play and hold up play really is good, when he's off form he looks like a nothing player. I'm not sure the best thing would do would be to drop him to be honest, obviously just my opinion.

But if Moyes did I think we've got good backup in Saha, Vaughan and Anichebe. The problem with Saha is he still looks very much off the pace, he didn't really impress against Newcastle and bar one or two moments against Standard Liege he was very quiet.

Saying that though I do trust him, I think he could do a good job given a chance. It's up to Moyes really, we'll see what happens.

 

[Cal]

Personally i think if we're going to start with a 4-5-1, Saha should be the one to step up for me, if we're just going to lump it.

I love the Yak, but we haven't played to his strengths recently at all. He needs the ball to his feet and he also needs players that will constantly link up with him. Fellaini can't do this, he has the positional sense of an absolute dog. Cahill for me, always should be partnered with Yakubu if we're going to do the 4-5-1, those 2 click like Tuna and Cucumber imo.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Personally i think if we're going to start with a 4-5-1, Saha should be the one to step up for me, if we're just going to lump it.

I love the Yak, but we haven't played to his strengths recently at all. He needs the ball to his feet and he also needs players that will constantly link up with him. Fellaini can't do this, he has the positional sense of an absolute dog. Cahill for me, always should be partnered with Yakubu if we're going to do the 4-5-1, those 2 click like Tuna and Cucumber imo.

You don't like Fellaini then?

I thought him and Yak linked up very well in the first half when we played football. I reckon it'll be this:


Arteta----------Neville----------Osman----------Pienaar

------------------------Fellaini-------------------------

------------------------Yakubu------------------------

 

[Great Dane]

You don't like Fellaini then?

I thought him and Yak linked up very well in the first half when we played football. I reckon it'll be this:


Arteta----------Neville----------Osman----------Pienaar

------------------------Fellaini-------------------------

------------------------Yakubu------------------------

Hey TB I agree with must of what you're saying - but that lineup will be our death. You can't have a defensive midfielder who can't pass and a small player who while excellent control is slow on the ball. Why do we want to place our least effective midfielder in the middle of the park.

Neville will not be dropped, so I would put him on the right midfield - where he will be able to the those crosses in that we know he can. Put Arteta in the middle and switch Osman and Fellaini - maybe even dropping Osman and putting Saha on from the start.

I would start the United game with a midfield like this:

Neville/Osman - Arteta - Fellaini - Piennar

------------Saha ---- Yakubu-----------

or

Neville - Arteta - Fellaini - Piennar

-------------Osman-------------

-------------Yakubu------------

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Hey TB I agree with must of what you're saying - but that lineup will be our death. You can't have a defensive midfielder who can't pass and a small player who while excellent control is slow on the ball. Why do we want to place our least effective midfielder in the middle of the park.

Neville will not be dropped, so I would put him on the right midfield - where he will be able to the those crosses in that we know he can. Put Arteta in the middle and switch Osman and Fellaini - maybe even dropping Osman and putting Saha on from the start.

I would start the United game with a midfield like this:

Neville/Osman - Arteta - Fellaini - Piennar

------------Saha ---- Yakubu-----------

or

Neville - Arteta - Fellaini - Piennar

-------------Osman-------------

-------------Yakubu------------

Moyes won't go like that to be honest. Osman and Neville will be in the middle, Neville because he's the golden boy and Osman because he works his socks off. Fellaini will play in the Cahill role I reckon.

I can't see him going 4-4-2 either to be honest, we'll get overrun in midfield like we usually do. That formation just doesn't suit our players, espcially not against a team like Utd.

 

[kenada_blue]

You don't like Fellaini then?

I thought him and Yak linked up very well in the first half when we played football. I reckon it'll be this:


Arteta----------Neville----------Osman----------Pienaar

------------------------Fellaini-------------------------

------------------------Yakubu------------------------

I thought they linked up well too. Arsenal couldnt handle Fellaini's height and he offered a few knock downs to Yak, the one he flicked on to Yak through on goal he would've buried if he controlled it better. Fellaini always had two players going up for a header around him.

I mentioned before the game that Fellaini should have a go in the Cahill role being that for his country and Liege he was an attacking midfielder, having Osman drop into the middle. But he happens to have a good engine to get up and down more than Cahill. He's a handful in and around the box just by sheer height and strength beating their back four a few times.

To be fair it worked in the 1st half against Arsenal very well. It got [Poor language removed] when we couldn't handle their pressure, resorted to hoofball, and Fellaini got injured/knock.

What I find amusing when I think about it that we've got more capable attacking players that we have an anchor in the midfield -- its why we can bang in goals but cant keep them out.

Cahill and Fellaini can play just off the striker.
Fellaini, Osman, Pienaar, Arteta can all play in the centre
Arteta, Osman, Pienaar, VDM, Anichebe can all play the wings
Saha, Yak, Vaughan, Anichebe, Baxter (?) all dangerous strikers.

The anchor role is something (like we all know) is what we're missing -
Neville - we know aint good there but the most experienced
Castillo - hasnt been given a good run out but has potencial
Rodwell - rock solid 1st half against Arsenal, potencial but not someone to hinge the whole season on.

So we either place a Arteta or someone as a solid holding player - like a Alonso, Fabregas, Barry - that isnt rough a tumble hard tackler but a strong playmaker that can keep the ball and dictate play to compensate the lack of strength in the DM role.

 

[Duncan9]

Personally i think if we're going to start with a 4-5-1, Saha should be the one to step up for me, if we're just going to lump it.

I love the Yak, but we haven't played to his strengths recently at all. He needs the ball to his feet and he also needs players that will constantly link up with him. Fellaini can't do this, he has the positional sense of an absolute dog. Cahill for me, always should be partnered with Yakubu if we're going to do the 4-5-1, those 2 click like Tuna and Cucumber imo.

Possibly crash helmet time again !
Moyes has a certain habit of reducing our strikers to look like a pile of poo. Beattie, Johnson et al all started off reasonably well but by continuing to play 4-5-1, when other teams had sussed this out, the strikers are continually isolated.
The ball is lumped upfield to the lone striker who is normally surrounded by at least three defenders and thus the move comes to nothing. Johnson was a prime example of this in that he was normally up against far bigger defenders and therefore struggled, albeit manfully. He also needed the ball to his feet so he could use what pace he had.
I fear that Yakubu is now getting to the same stage. He is just not getting the service required.

I too wish we had bought Fernandes. A class act !

 

[Great Dane]

I thought they linked up well too. Arsenal couldnt handle Fellaini's height and he offered a few knock downs to Yak, the one he flicked on to Yak through on goal he would've buried if he controlled it better. Fellaini always had two players going up for a header around him.

I mentioned before the game that Fellaini should have a go in the Cahill role being that for his country and Liege he was an attacking midfielder, having Osman drop into the middle. But he happens to have a good engine to get up and down more than Cahill. He's a handful in and around the box just by sheer height and strength beating their back four a few times.

To be fair it worked in the 1st half against Arsenal very well. It got [Poor language removed] when we couldn't handle their pressure, resorted to hoofball, and Fellaini got injured/knock.

What I find amusing when I think about it that we've got more capable attacking players that we have an anchor in the midfield -- its why we can bang in goals but cant keep them out.

Cahill and Fellaini can play just off the striker.
Fellaini, Osman, Pienaar, Arteta can all play in the centre
Arteta, Osman, Pienaar, VDM, Anichebe can all play the wings
Saha, Yak, Vaughan, Anichebe, Baxter (?) all dangerous strikers.

The anchor role is something (like we all know) is what we're missing -
Neville - we know aint good there but the most experienced
Castillo - hasnt been given a good run out but has potencial
Rodwell - rock solid 1st half against Arsenal, potencial but not someone to hinge the whole season on.

So we either place a Arteta or someone as a solid holding player - like a Alonso, Fabregas, Barry - that isnt rough a tumble hard tackler but a strong playmaker that can keep the ball and dictate play to compensate the lack of strength in the DM role.

My exact point. We put midfielders in the center that can't make the great passes and play our way out of trouble. Neville can't pass and Osman is too slow and too easily pushed of the ball. Put Arteta and Fellaini in there and you have two players who knows how to pass the ball and who needs to be involved constantly. I think that partnership could have potential.

 

[kenada_blue]

My exact point. We put midfielders in the center that can't make the great passes and play our way out of trouble. Neville can't pass and Osman is too slow and too easily pushed of the ball. Put Arteta and Fellaini in there and you have two players who knows how to pass the ball and who needs to be involved constantly. I think that partnership could have potential.

I do like the theory behind that. Fellaini aint a battler but can win areial balls, can stick his lanky legs into challenges and with Arteta behind him has an out let to lay it off to a creative player who isnt muscled off the ball easily, can hold the ball up and see the pass around him. Cahill's can do the same.

I mean, look at the [Poor language removed] (I know we dont want to but we're talking football here). The Yeti for them is their ball winner, gets stuck in but can pass it around. He hasnt played this season (maybe once or twice) being that Alonso has been in his position. Alsono isnt a hard tackler, a ball winner as such, but he's been vital in the [Poor language removed]'s form this season. Arteta and Alonso are similar type of players IMO (like Barry for Villa or England also) so I cant see why it couldnt work.

 

[coyney]

I don't know, Bruce. I like to think that I'm a fair person, and I do admit it when I'm wrong (honest, I do!). I've just started to get this terrible feeling that Moyes is losing the plot. Shoot me, I'm evil. Ok come back from the land of Bacon and I WILL In truth though John Im having doubts myself since this contract thing I have a feeling things might be getting on top of him I hope not

 

[Brownie]

My exact point. We put midfielders in the center that can't make the great passes and play our way out of trouble. Neville can't pass and Osman is too slow and too easily pushed of the ball. Put Arteta and Fellaini in there and you have two players who knows how to pass the ball and who needs to be involved constantly. I think that partnership could have potential.

I like the sound of that. Even better, when Timmy isn't playing, Arteta, Fellaini, Rodwell all in the middle. Each of them is good on the ball individually and could pass to each other. Those three could finally give me my wish of us starting a move in the centre circle. Again, shame we didn't get Obinna to play as an out and out winger. Still, that is the makings of a quality midfield right there.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

I like the sound of that. Even better, when Timmy isn't playing, Arteta, Fellaini, Rodwell all in the middle. Each of them is good on the ball individually and could pass to each other. Those three could finally give me my wish of us starting a move in the centre circle. Again, shame we didn't get Obinna to play as an out and out winger. Still, that is the makings of a quality midfield right there.

I'm gutted we missed out on him. The balance would be perfect if we had a pacy winger. I hope Moyes looks for one in the summer, someone quick who can get in behind teams.

I have a feeling he'll go for someone like Hunt though. Decent player but not what where looking for.