Would 1 League Cup make a difference?

[njligernj]

Yes, my biggest criticism of him is that he bottles it and goes into his shell when it would serve us better to come out fighting. That last step is the biggest and it's one you need a lot of self belief and a bit of cavalier to make. I'm not sure he has it and that means the best you'll be is nearly men which is what most outside of ourselves view us as.

... but what if our League Cup final was against Bradford? Just luck of the draw stuff ... we get Bradford and cruise to a nice win. Would that change your perception of bottling? We still lose against Chelsea in a semi and a final, we still lose against the RS in a semi, we still get dumped out of Europa at the same times, we still lose against the cherry-picked top sides people always point out.

I'm not a Moyes hater but I don't see how a Cup -- if it was won with a kind draw and a bit of luck like facing a lower league side in the final instead of a team that would go on to win the Champions League -- would change the perception of Moyes. It would though ... at least to you ... which kind of proves the point that people defending Moyes make doesn't it? That the luck of the draw in a Cup competition doesn't really make someone a better or worse manager? Doesn't it mean constantly pointing out the no-mark clubs which have fluked a Cup and done nothing else in a decade isn't really a valid "anti-Moyes" point?

Moyes wouldn't be a better manager if we faced Bradford in the Cup final instead of Chelsea. He'd just be a luckier one.

 

[zirc]

... but what if our League Cup final was against Bradford?

Or Cardiff City, even.

 

[Allezfan]

I'm with Ste on this.

If we win the FA cup this year it would raise my opinion of him considerably even if we only have to face Wigan, Blackburn and Barnsley in the last three games because it would be winning the games that mattered and regardless of the opposition that's what we struggle to do. And it's not easy no matter who you're playing.

 

[ScouseBlueBoy]

I'm with Ste on this.

If we win the FA cup this year it would raise my opinion of him considerably even if we only have to face Wigan, Blackburn and Barnsley in the last three games because it would be winning the games that mattered and regardless of the opposition that's what we struggle to do. And it's not easy no matter who you're playing.

When LFC won the European Cup in the pre CL days, they played some real stiffs along the way. It doesn't diminuish the achievement in my eyes. I want my son to see us lift a cup. Silverware would make me shut up about Moyes not winning anything. Make it so David.

 

[davek]

It certainly wouldn't have harmed his chances of being universally accepted as a success. It's definitely conspicuous by its absence (a trophy).

Almost as bad as not having won a trophy is his suggestion that we're perennial strugglers and that high(ish) league finishes are the best that can be expected and that he's achieved this. It's as ridiculous as it is insulting. Managers have to be judged at a club like Everton in terms of what they've won. If that isn't the case then I'm a dinosaur and dont understand things anymore.

 

[micknick]

It certainly wouldn't have harmed his chances of being universally accepted as a success. It's definitely conspicuous by its absence (a trophy).

Almost as bad as not having won a trophy is his suggestion that we're perennial strugglers and that high(ish) league finishes are the best that can be expected and that he's achieved this. It's as ridiculous as it is insulting. Managers have to be judged at a club like Everton in terms of what they've won. If that isn't the case then I'm a dinosaur and dont understand things anymore.

Youve turned on Moyes because you're bored of Kenwright.

How have Sunderland, Newcastle, Villa, Fulham, Stoke, Wigan faired when they have had consistently more money than us to spend during the same period? Loads of trophies there eh

 

[Tubey]

Yes, because if he had actually won something, it'd completely nullify my opinion of him as a massive bottler when it matters most.

 

[Brennan]

Youve turned on Moyes because you're bored of Kenwright.

How have Sunderland, Newcastle, Villa, Fulham, Stoke, Wigan faired when they have had consistently more money than us to spend during the same period? Loads of trophies there eh

Wigan ?

 

[Carlito]

I suppose it'd make a difference in that I'd want him to stay because he'd have shown an ability to win silverware, rather than just accepting his flaws out of necessity as I do now. I'm genuinely afraid of the alternatives under Kenwright.

At the moment I've got no faith in Moyes as a big game manager. The only memory I have of one of his teams going out and beating a difficult opponent when it really mattered was vs. Manchester United at Goodison in 2005. Each European campaign was abruptly ended by the first decent side Everton faced, and the best performance of the three Wembley visits was a desperate Alamo job against United's reserves.

 

[Brennan]

For me 1 league cup and nothing else in 11 years is still a pretty poor record.

If you're stuck in the past and still think we're Everton of the 80s then sure. Otherwise, not really.

 

[davek]

Youve turned on Moyes because you're bored of Kenwright.

How have Sunderland, Newcastle, Villa, Fulham, Stoke, Wigan faired when they have had consistently more money than us to spend during the same period? Loads of trophies there eh

My turning on Moyes is relative. I know who's ultimately to blame at Everton, and I always acknowledge what Moyes has achieved here. Him and his fan club are not on though in trying to position Everton as something they're not and never have been. He doesn't get to do that no matter how much god work he's done and no matter how he'd like to frame his time here.

 

[micknick]

My turning on Moyes is relative. I know who's ultimately to blame at Everton, and I always acknowledge what Moyes has achieved here. Him and his fan club are not on though in trying to position Everton as something they're not and never have been. He doesn't get to do that no matter how much god work he's done and no matter how he'd like to frame his time here.

Bottom line we need money. Everyone knows this. We are only ever going to be able to achieve so much on such limited resources. Moyes cannot keep pulling rabbits out of hats in the transfer market

Its like youve given up the fight on Kenwright and turned on Moyes.

Can you remember when Alan Curbishley was manager of Charlton? They were consistently towards mid table on limited funds- safe pretty much every season until he left and they capitulated. My biggest single worry is that if Moyes leaves the very same could happen to us.

Its happened to Leeds, Forest and even Blackburn. Into the abyss and struggling to get anywhere again.

 

[zirc]

If you're stuck in the past and still think we're Everton of the 80s then sure. Otherwise, not really.

I just don't see it as much different than our current record. A number of middling sides have won the League Cup and the top teams don't make any effort in it. An FA Cup would have been a different story.

 

[Allezfan]

I just don't see it as much different than our current record. A number of middling sides have won the League Cup and the top teams don't make any effort in it. An FA Cup would have been a different story.

A trophy is a trophy. Would have been great.

 

[davek]

Bottom line we need money. Everyone knows this. We are only ever going to be able to achieve so much on such limited resources. Moyes cannot keep pulling rabbits out of hats in the transfer market

Its like youve given up the fight on Kenwright and turned on Moyes.

Can you remember when Alan Curbishley was manager of Charlton? They were consistently towards mid table on limited funds- safe pretty much every season until he left and they capitulated. My biggest single worry is that if Moyes leaves the very same could happen to us.

Its happened to Leeds, Forest and even Blackburn. Into the abyss and struggling to get anywhere again.

Tbh I'm not in a hurry to see Moyes go...for the reason you state. Unless we hit some good fortune and get another manager who can hit the ground running we'll almost certainly drop below midtable in the next few seasons. But that doesn't mean he's the answer for us. Even under the dead hand leadership of Kenwright we've been in positions when we could have made the breakthrough. I dont think he has it in his locker to win a trophy with the resources he has. Maybe if he had more money to invest in a couple of top match winners who could get us big game wins no matter who they play under.