Priorities - the league or a tilt at silverware?

[LinekersLegs]

iirc the final was a downing of tools on behalf of city, and mancini was booted not long after? are wigan better off for the cup win? when portsmouth won their cup and were in trouble, weren't they so devoid of cash that they couldn't pay the fee to play in europe when they'd qualified?
As for Everton, I'm always wary, every gift is forbidden fruit. ps, wigan won the fa cup in 2013. wigan are currently residing in league one.
The bandit they had that masterminded their downfall ended up here talking lunacy about heroic defeats and possession stats. His days lying to us were probably a highlight considering what came after him. The joy of hindsight.

Reckon we get a new ground languishing in the lower leagues crippled by debt and talking up former glories?

I think Wigan fans were absolutely better off for the FA cup win, it was their first major trophy! They also got some trips to Europe the following year, those would have been really fun!

As the club, I’d say yes too as it raised their profile, they got the FA cup prize money and extra gate money for the run. So both financially and reputation wise I’d say they were better off after the win. True they are now in league 1 but you haven’t provided any evidence or reasoning that their cup win caused that. You even say in the next post “some sides aren’t built to fight their way back into the PL” so you seem to acknowledge that it was the squad itself (and manager) that was more at issue.

As for Everton - “every gift is forbidden fruit”…surely that doesn’t mean you think we should never try for a cup? There must be some progress of the club where you would feel comfortable?

 

[Billy Liar]

It's a disgrace that we haven't won a trophy for 30 years.

 

[Swartzy]

I agree that was not a weak team but giving players who have not played regular a run out
Who performed like a bunch of footballers who have played together for the first time

Yeah but you could then counteract that case with if we don't give the players a run out, what happens once injuries kick in..

 

[Rita_Poon]

I think Wigan fans were absolutely better off for the FA cup win, it was their first major trophy! They also got some trips to Europe the following year, those would have been really fun!

As the club, I’d say yes too as it raised their profile, they got the FA cup prize money and extra gate money for the run. So both financially and reputation wise I’d say they were better off after the win. True they are now in league 1 but you haven’t provided any evidence or reasoning that their cup win caused that. You even say in the next post “some sides aren’t built to fight their way back into the PL” so you seem to acknowledge that it was the squad itself (and manager) that was more at issue.

As for Everton - “every gift is forbidden fruit”…surely that doesn’t mean you think we should never try for a cup? There must be some progress of the club where you would feel comfortable?

The wigan manager went all out for the cup win and set fire to their league chances with his defensive sabotage. he was and is a busted flush. wigan never recovered.
We're a Yakubu away from beating anyone, we will create chances, we have a bit of hustle, and we've got a solid if not amazing going forwards defence. Agree btw it doesn't mean we should never try for a cup. The progress I want is stability and bringing the squad on through transition into its next settled build. When we've got a side that is balanced and confident in one another then we can expect a bit more. With a half decent striker we beat Villa, (not writing Barry off) the gist of my post is we need to show a bit of patience. We turned over 18 players in various ways this summer and got 9 players in, it was always going to take time and games and perseverance to get this side performing, we're 6 weeks into the new season.
Some of the loudest and stupidest supporters (if they really are) are the doomsayers that are constantly moaning. I enjoy laughing at them.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Yeah but you could then counteract that case with if we don't give the players a run out, what happens once injuries kick in..

Ironically having a cup run means you get more games to give those players a run out.

We could also sub on the odd player earlier in league games, especially if we are winning, rather than just using them as a 87min sub to time waste.

I’m also really confused as to what even is the benefit of such wholesale changes as they don’t reflect how the player would perform in the usual team if they had to be used to cover an injury.

 

[Mick OMalley]

I'd rather win a cup and finish 12th than finish 6th with no trophy.

Same here all day long

 

[LinekersLegs]

The wigan manager went all out for the cup win and set fire to their league chances with his defensive sabotage. he was and is a busted flush. wigan never recovered.
We're a Yakubu away from beating anyone, we will create chances, we have a bit of hustle, and we've got a solid if not amazing going forwards defence. Agree btw it doesn't mean we should never try for a cup. The progress I want is stability and bringing the squad on through transition into its next settled build. When we've got a side that is balanced and confident in one another then we can expect a bit more. With a half decent striker we beat Villa, (not writing Barry off) the gist of my post is we need to show a bit of patience. We turned over 18 players in various ways this summer and got 9 players in, it was always going to take time and games and perseverance to get this side performing, we're 6 weeks into the new season.
Some of the loudest and stupidest supporters (if they really are) are the doomsayers that are constantly moaning. I enjoy laughing at them.

You keep on stating these as facts without providing a shred of evidence.Yes Martinez was weak defensively but the cup run/win didn’t have any bearing on that - as @Tipp blue pointed out they had already been relegated by the time most of the run had been completed. And again, how did their cup win have anything to do with them not recovering?

I don’t see how having patience with our progress (which I agree we need) means that I have to been super happy we didn’t make more of an attempt at winning a winnable game.

 

[Rita_Poon]

You keep on stating these as facts without providing a shred of evidence.Yes Martinez was weak defensively but the cup run/win didn’t have any bearing on that - as @Tipp blue pointed out they had already been relegated by the time most of the run had been completed. And again, how did their cup win have anything to do with them not recovering?

I don’t see how having patience with our progress (which I agree we need) means that I have to been super happy we didn’t make more of an attempt at winning a winnable game.

Won 9, drew 9, lost 20. Goals for 47, goals against 73. Joint top goals conceded in the division. Played in europe the following season from the championship.
Finished bottom of the europa league group.

Well I'll be, did you know wigan played one home fixture in the fa cup win run, vs bournemouth which was drawn, obviously then won (replay) away.
The bournemouth home game was the Jan 5th. Their last league game before the FA cup began was losing 4-0 at home to man utd. After the replay they won 6 straight cup games to lift the FA cup. In that period, they won only 4 league games. I put it to you that this is plenty of proof that their form was cup focused and to hell with league survival. From the turn of the year they didn't win in the league until the end of February.
For the record, wigan lost to bradford in the league cup 4th round that season.
Arsenal beat wigan 3 days after the fa cup final 4-1 to seal their relegation fate. (May 14th 2013)

 

[Rita_Poon]

That puts that to bed.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Won 9, drew 9, lost 20. Goals for 47, goals against 73. Joint top goals conceded in the division. Played in europe the following season from the championship.
Finished bottom of the europa league group.

Well I'll be, did you know wigan played one home fixture in the fa cup win run, vs bournemouth which was drawn, obviously then won (replay) away.
The bournemouth home game was the Jan 5th. Their last league game before the FA cup began was losing 4-0 at home to man utd. After the replay they won 6 straight cup games to lift the FA cup. In that period, they won only 4 league games. I put it to you that this is plenty of proof that their form was cup focused and to hell with league survival. From the turn of the year they didn't win in the league until the end of February.
For the record, wigan lost to bradford in the league cup 4th round that season.
Arsenal beat wigan 3 days after the fa cup final 4-1 to seal their relegation fate. (May 14th 2013)

Thank you for providing some data!

But looking at it Wigan got more league points in the latter 18 games from Boxing Day (5 wins and 6 draws = 21pts ) when they were having their FA cup run than they did in the first 18 when they had lost in the 4th round of the league cup (4 wins and 3 draws=15 pts). So they may well have been focusing on the FA cup but if anything it seemed to help their league performances rather than hinder them, at least compared to their early season form. Even if you take out the last win when they were already relegated they still gained more league points during their cup run than they did in the first half of their season without one - 18 points to 15.

I suppose if they hadn’t had the cup run they may have got even more than their second half 21 points but perhaps they were buoyed by their cup run and played better in the league because of it - hard to prove one way or another.

And that is where I’ll leave it and we’ll agree to disagree!

 

[phil_t98]

just try for both, silly to put the team out he did the other day. we have another international break around the corner and players will be rested then

 

[Swartzy]

Ironically having a cup run means you get more games to give those players a run out.

We could also sub on the odd player earlier in league games, especially if we are winning, rather than just using them as a 87min sub to time waste.

I’m also really confused as to what even is the benefit of such wholesale changes as they don’t reflect how the player would perform in the usual team if they had to be used to cover an injury.

The wholesale changes is beyond me, I doubt he could give you a straight answer to that. But changes were acceptable aslong as he keeps a strong core to the team.

Squad players have to believe they will get opportunities or their mental attitude will drop as much as there game fitness.

Wholesale changes is the issue, not changes..

 

[everton1953]

The Echo is impossible to read with all the adverts. Where can you watch the Moyes presser for the West Ham game? He got shirty apparently.

 

[NSNO1878EFC]

Moyes said in the Mansfield programme that “Being a Premier League club has to be the priority” so it’s not a surprise that we rotated for the cup game.

The only way we’re going to do consistently well in cups is by improving the squad further and the only way that we can do that is by doing well in the League.

 

[LinekersLegs]

The wholesale changes is beyond me, I doubt he could give you a straight answer to that. But changes were acceptable aslong as he keeps a strong core to the team.

Squad players have to believe they will get opportunities or their mental attitude will drop as much as there game fitness.

Wholesale changes is the issue, not changes..

And it is possible that even if he'd fielded the exact same squad that beat them 3 weeks ago that their 2nd string could have won - football, especially cup games, can throw up some odd results!