Wanting Success.

[Saint Domingo]

A lot of rhetoric in the OP but once you look past the words there is no real plan that would result in us being able to sign top quality players, to compete with teams that are far richer than us and win trophies.

We can all throw our toys out of the pram but it wouldn't have let us keep Lukaku, Ross or Stones or allowed us to buy the likes of Mata.

Talk is cheap but top quality players aren't and we don't have the money to compete at the very highest level.

As fans we can either accept reality and base our expectations on our level of wealth or we can demand the club win things, while throwing our toys out of the pram it not and hope other fans don't laugh too hard at our levels of delusion.

I hate the way people who have the OP's stance talk about accepting mediocrity. It's not that any of us want to accept mediocrity, it's more the fact that some people base their expectations on reality.

Demanding success does not bring it in itself. If it were that simple we'd all be doing it.

I thought the plan would be obvious? Go out and hire a quality manager, give him the funds to build a team and create a winning mentality throughout the club. That indicates to players that we are ambitious and moving forward. Then we might start pressuring the big 6, if a few slip up we’d be amongst them then you build from there.

Because number 3 is not there, there’s no desire to do number 1 as can be seen by the appointments of Martinez and Allardyce. Koeman on paper was ambitious but as soon as he realised the culture of the club he realised he could get away with saying 7th was good enough, because the owners think it is, and they’re not challenged on that because the fans think it is as well!

The fans have to be the starting point. If our expectations are for mediocrity then there is no incentive for anyone at Everton go deliver above that. If we make it clear that mediocrity is unacceptable then every scyionnthe club takes is cast against that background and they will start to consider each one more carefully.

Any board of the top 6 would not have hired Sam Allardyce because of the reputations damage and the fan reaction. His appointment showed that the board do not care about the reputation of the club and they did not fear or expect a fan reaction.

 

[havrey0123]

Once Sam leaves have to go for it. Tried doing things slowly i.e. bringing in a (at the time) rated premier league manager in koeman and buying (at the time) rated players in Williams., Bolasie (he was ok at palace) Schneider Lin (was decent at Southampton), siggurdson, Keane, Pickford walcott and Rooney.

All of those players had premier league experience and would be classed as not good enough for the top 6 but still decent players. hence those players were signed without any real competition from other teams

To take the next step the next manager has to be a big name and the only way to attract someone like that is to give him a massive warchest to spend on players.

 

[Charles Hawtrey]

I was suggesting that mediocrity and being an unsuccessful club set in before Moyes arrived with us being constant relegation strugglers and having an average league position of 13th in the 11 seasons before he arrived.

Now that we have the backing of Moshiri, and are coming from a position of having a squad that is 7th best or close to it, making that next step is a reasonable aim. Just because we're a great club and you want to win things because you're an Evertonian doesn't translate to what will happen on the pitch though. Aston Villa are a 'great club' who have won titles and a European Cup. They're now in the Championship.

When Moshiri/the manager puts together a squad of quality which we'd hope happens in the next few years, we may start to challenge again. Until then, just demanding success because "we're Everton" is delusional. That doesn't mean I am settling for 7th/8th by the way, I am just being realistic based on the quality of the team I am watching week in week out and the gulf in class between the top 6 and ourselves. We were regularly amongst them under Moyes by the way, now we're back where we were before he got here (barring one good league season under Royle), fighting it out with the Southampton's and West Ham's of the league and not Spurs and Liverpool.

I agree with 99% of things you are saying. I am very much a realist in the outcomes I expect on a tactical basis.The point at issue though is not our realistic results but our lack of ambition and that is translating in an acceptance of 7th place finishes as successful and a 6th place finish being a 'dream season'. How awful does that sound when I write it down? Mediocrity came to Everton not long after the EPL was founded, you are correct but I struggle to accept it now matter how ingrained it has become over time. I am far from delusional, I just believe Moshiri's plan should not be just to break into the Top Six.

 

[TraffordBlue]

I agree with 99% of things you are saying. I am very much a realist in the outcomes I expect on a tactical basis.The point at issue though is not our realistic results but our lack of ambition and that is translating in an acceptance of 7th place finishes as successful and a 6th place finish being a 'dream season'. How awful does that sound when I write it down? Mediocrity came to Everton not long after the EPL was founded, you are correct but I struggle to accept it now matter how ingrained it has become over time. I am far from delusional, I just believe Moshiri's plan should not be just to break into the Top Six.

Those comments are fair enough. It's going to take time though and unfortunately the plan we had in the Summer was an absolute mess and has set us back considerably, as has the lack of foresight by those in charge in terms of replacing the previously reliable stalwarts like Baines and Jagielka. We're fortunate that below the top 6, other teams either can't improve much more as they have found their level - e.g a Swansea or West Ham just existing in the PL, or have gone backwards - like Southampton. Otherwise our failings would have been highlighted far more.

I think the initial aim - starting this season (and completely disagree with Allardyce's pathetic attempt at writing the season off) is to assert our position as 'best of the rest'. I fully appreciate that this is not success in the way our club knows it, but it is a positive step given the circumstances. We then need to address the issue I mentioned earlier with the older players being replaced and strengthening in a few key areas like Left Back and bringing in a creative midfielder over the summer. With the quality in our current side - Sigurdsson, Coleman, Pickford, Rooney, Walcott, Gana etc, along with the promising young players we have, we could then have a good blend of experience and youth to close the gap on the top 6. From there (may not be able to challenge instantly next season), we can look at challenging the top 4-6 by bringing in better quality players than we're used to with our status and ambition proven with the consistent league finishes and new stadium project getting nearer hopefully.

 

[Goat]

Or the bellends who are too narrow minded to realise that some fans do want to stand and sing at the match. Goodison was famed for having standing and seats on all 4 sides, because we have always had fans who like both. Singing and chanting at Everton has existed since the 19th Century because some fans enjoy it, it does not make them bellend just because you are not into it.

I manage to stand and chant just fine without a singing section, every single game, I didnt say I didnt like standing and singing my heart out, but I dont need a choir section and nor do I need to be told to stand up.

 

[davids]

The main problem we have in demanding success is that we missed the billionarie boat.Yes we demanded success and jostled Catterick and he went out and bought argueably the best all-round footballer that England has produced.But that was in the days when we were know as the millionarie club with John Moores money behind us,and we broke British transfer records on a regular basis.Today Wolves probably have at least as much,maybe more money behind them.Players turn us down and go to Stoke,we shop in the bargain basement for players and managers.Time to accept the ship has sailed and 7th place is our realistic target unless...Usmanov?

 

[Big Neville Southall]

I manage to stand and chant just fine without a singing section, every single game, I didnt say I didnt like standing and singing my heart out, but I dont need a choir section and nor do I need to be told to stand up.

You'll find that the songs and chants you do sing have been started by a singing section. The back of the Gwladys Street is the section of the ground where the majority of the singing starts from. All a singing section is, is where fans into singing the most and start songs off group together.

 

[CrustySack]

I fully believe Everton would have been regularly in the top 4 during Moyes tenure if we'd have had decent finances. The blame for that not happening falls at Mr Kenright's feet. Moyes built two class sides that were 2 or 3 class players away from doing just that.

Moyes could spot a player for sure, but didn't have the funds required to go out and complete those signings. I'm not talking about £25-30 million players. Fellaini was our record signing at £15 million. If Moyes had of had a bigger budget then I'm certain he would have brought players like Hazard for instance who we spotted way before he went to Chelsea. Of course, we couldn't afford the transfer fee so missed out.

We know old ginger nuts faded, but for a good 8 years he was brilliant for Everton. My point in all this is that for Everton to be successful, we need a long-term manager who will be allowed to build a team. Swapping and changing managers will not work for us. With this in mind it might be worthwhile having a long hard think about whether a foreign manager really is the best fit for us.

 

[electricblue]

I agree.

Actually it might be a better idea if EFC became an U35 club only, and refused to sell season tickets to anyone over that age. I mean when you think about it, everyone over 35 is fully supportive of Bill and the board and are therefore fully guilty of accepting the mediocrity which is preventing us winning trophies, whereas everyone under 35 are the real fans who hate the board and they are the only ones who want what is best for the club.

It really is that black and white isn't it.

 

[Azzurri]

Actually it might be a better idea if EFC became an U35 club only, and refused to sell season tickets to anyone over that age. I mean when you think about it, everyone over 35 is fully supportive of Bill and the board and are therefore fully guilty of accepting the mediocrity which is preventing us winning trophies, whereas everyone under 35 are the real fans who hate the board and they are the only ones who want what is best for the club.

It really is that black and white isn't it.

It is.

 

[Market trader]

I really don't know what the answer is, unless, the board do what similar sized organisations do and decide their strategy and get people in to implement it. We can't go on getting managers in and giving them large sums of money to waste and doing the same again every year or so. We are not Chelsea. (20 managers in the Premier League era.)

 

[Woolly Blue]

Fans of yesteryear hung banners ‘Sack Catterick, Keep Young’, they jostled him in a car park, they stayed away from Goodison in their droves no less than 3 seasons after a title winning campaign. Catterick responded with a cup win, Alan Ball was brought in and one of the greatest sides in English football history was created to win the title again.

These same fans daubed ‘Kendall out’ on the walls of Bellefield, they threw cushions at the team, they would not go to Goodison, 30,000 stay at home fans couldn’t be wrong. Kendall went on to win the cup and created one of the greatest sides in English football history.

There's nothing wrong with criticising managers, players, directors or anyone else at the club, but the idea that those criticising Kendall ( and, at the time, I was one ) and Catterick actually had any influence on what happened afterwards is utterly barking.

 

[AdaBrummieblue]

I watched these two in awe, one as player one as manager.

Peter Reid, Howard Kendall

This national hunt doesn't deserve mentioning in the same breath. No way on Earth do I sit back and think he's worth a spot in our side. Never.

Schneiderlin

 

[Brisan123]

I think Steve Walsh still being at this club sums everything up.

A man who gets paid a hefty amount to build a team, fails to the detriment of the club. Instead of being handed his p45 is allowed to carry on.

This has basically been happening since I was old enough to really understand.

Robert Elstone being another.

Does the club demand the best? Simply no and there’s years worth of proof.

When your clubs motto is Nothing but the best is good enough I wouldn’t call it entitlement to demand that they live up to their mission statement.

It’s hard to blame Walsh unless we know which players he signed and who Koeman signed
Lookman , Henry , Vlasic , Gibson seem his type the rest were Koeman.
Still he has to go as DOF or just stay as scout

 

[Goat]

It’s hard to blame Walsh unless we know which players he signed and who Koeman signed
Lookman , Henry , Vlasic , Gibson seem his type the rest were Koeman.
Still he has to go as DOF or just stay as scout

He signed them all.

Every single player is on him, ALL OF THEM.