Wanting Success.

[Toast]

At least we are no longer bringing out dvd's to celebrate finishing 7th though.

 

[whiteshadow]

A lot of rhetoric in the OP but once you look past the words there is no real plan that would result in us being able to sign top quality players, to compete with teams that are far richer than us and win trophies.

We can all throw our toys out of the pram but it wouldn't have let us keep Lukaku, Ross or Stones or allowed us to buy the likes of Mata.

Talk is cheap but top quality players aren't and we don't have the money to compete at the very highest level.

As fans we can either accept reality and base our expectations on our level of wealth or we can demand the club win things, while throwing our toys out of the pram it not and hope other fans don't laugh too hard at our levels of delusion.

I hate the way people who have the OP's stance talk about accepting mediocrity. It's not that any of us want to accept mediocrity, it's more the fact that some people base their expectations on reality.

Demanding success does not bring it in itself. If it were that simple we'd all be doing it.

 

[TraffordBlue]

Moyes' average league placing was 7th/8th.

Nowhere.

The worst of him though (even worse than the dullard hoofball he had the country associate Everton with) was his insistence that we as a club were second rate and supporters shouldn't insist we be a success...a REAL success. He dumbed us down with his mate Kenwright and we still pay for their reign of mediocrity to this day.

But in the previous 11 seasons it was 13th. What did you expect from him, to have us ahead of clubs like Chelsea each season when they had the Abramovic money and we had the limited finances we had?

Arguably the best team goal of the last 15-20 years for our club came under Moyes' "dullard hoofball" by the way. Against Larissa when Osman scored.

 

[TraffordBlue]

You are right. We are coming 7th instead because Man City hit the sugar daddy lottery.

Moyes record in the cups was pretty poor.

Moyes record in the Cups wasn't brilliant, he was better in the league as our manager. But again, like I've said to DaveK you have to be realistic when considering the situation. How many Cup Finals have we been in during the last 30 years? 1989, 1995 and 2009. Lost 2, won 1. 1 of the appearances was under Moyes. If you're comparing Moyes to Kendall then of course it would be ridiculous to hold Moyes up as having achieved great things but in the last 30 years, only Royle has outdone him, and he didn't stay for long.

 

[TraffordBlue]

Alarmingly I find myself agreeing with the OP and Davek!
In business, companies that pride themselves on being the seventh best in their particular brand ladder soon go away. Few companies would espouse a mission statement of “we plan to not go out of business” and yet we blues have been sold this line so many times it has stuck. Earlier in the thread a poster was lauding Moyes for moving our rolling 10 year average league finish from 11th to 8th. FFS!! He was here for over a decade and he never won anything!! 8th is not good enough and neither is finishing 7th this year!!
I am an Evertonian - we are a great club that wants to win things - even our motto/crest has that embodied in it. I realize there are long odds on us winning anything but part of believing in your team is believing you can beat those long odds.
Sadly many of us got that feeling back at the start of the season, buying the players we wanted, papers talking up our top six credentials, etc. And now we are saying we should keep the BFS because we didn’t go down! Oh no, hold on, he is saying it and the club are allowing him to! FFS Everton get your head out of your arse and get some pride back. Sack the BFS and get a leader in who does not define success as ‘not failing’.
The club needs a purge from top to bottom and anyone whose goal (short or long term) is not ‘to win the league,win the cup(s), and be the best’ should be fired on the spot.
You would never get away with that in a proper company.

I was suggesting that mediocrity and being an unsuccessful club set in before Moyes arrived with us being constant relegation strugglers and having an average league position of 13th in the 11 seasons before he arrived.

Now that we have the backing of Moshiri, and are coming from a position of having a squad that is 7th best or close to it, making that next step is a reasonable aim. Just because we're a great club and you want to win things because you're an Evertonian doesn't translate to what will happen on the pitch though. Aston Villa are a 'great club' who have won titles and a European Cup. They're now in the Championship.

When Moshiri/the manager puts together a squad of quality which we'd hope happens in the next few years, we may start to challenge again. Until then, just demanding success because "we're Everton" is delusional. That doesn't mean I am settling for 7th/8th by the way, I am just being realistic based on the quality of the team I am watching week in week out and the gulf in class between the top 6 and ourselves. We were regularly amongst them under Moyes by the way, now we're back where we were before he got here (barring one good league season under Royle), fighting it out with the Southampton's and West Ham's of the league and not Spurs and Liverpool.

 

[Yarrgh]

Porto won the CL under Mourinho. Atletico Madrid surpassed the galacticos at Madrid and Barca several times. Even Leicester took the title here. Success is always possible. Lack of money? Excuse. Poor player altitude? Excuse. Poor gravy stained management? Excuse.

I thought Moyes when he was first here, thought like that, before he hit his ceiling and blamed the lack of money. Martinez I thought in his first season in particular thought big, but was undone by poor defensive and fitness work. We need a management structure that wants to come in and be the best and has a plan to get there and is adaptable to change tack when required.

We should be aiming for a quadruple every season. I bet City are. I'm not saying this is an overnight thing, but it needs to be worked towards. I don't even get that from what we have, a placeholder manager and some will-do-for-a-couple of season players. The youth set up seems to be doing it I will admit, as there are players on the fringes and starting to make the first team proper - I hope they prove to be the way to success as I don't see it via our current recruitment strategy which is scatter gun at best.

As for supporting them, same for me as always. It goes downhill when they play badly, and I get on my feet when something excites me. You want me up and roaring, then the team needs to be on a roll and playing exciting winning football.

 

[TraffordBlue]

Porto won the CL under Mourinho. Atletico Madrid surpassed the galacticos at Madrid and Barca several times. Even Leicester took the title here. Success is always possible. Lack of money? Excuse. Poor player altitude? Excuse. Poor gravy stained management? Excuse.

I thought Moyes when he was first here, thought like that, before he hit his ceiling and blamed the lack of money. Martinez I thought in his first season in particular thought big, but was undone by poor defensive and fitness work. We need a management structure that wants to come in and be the best and has a plan to get there and is adaptable to change tack when required.

We should be aiming for a quadruple every season. I bet City are. I'm not saying this is an overnight thing, but it needs to be worked towards. I don't even get that from what we have, a placeholder manager and some will-do-for-a-couple of season players. The youth set up seems to be doing it I will admit, as there are players on the fringes and starting to make the first team proper - I hope they prove to be the way to success as I don't see it via our current recruitment strategy which is scatter gun at best.

As for supporting them, same for me as always. It goes downhill when they play badly, and I get on my feet when something excites me. You want me up and roaring, then the team needs to be on a roll and playing exciting winning football.

lol.

I think some of our fans set themselves up for a huge level of frustration watching the club if this is their attitude. How many clubs in English Football have ever won a 'Quadruple'? City are one of the greatest English sides in the last 25 years and they're not going to do it. They're also backed by owners who are among the richest in World Football with a squad of World Class players, we aren't.

Success happens in stages unless it is a complete once in a lifetime type achievement like Leicester's. At present we're not even sure to finish 'best of the rest' ahead of Burnley or Bournemouth. Like Spurs are doing (still haven't won a trophy and lose in any big away game/crunch game at Wembley in the Cups against the top sides like we do though), our progress will most likely have to be steady and involve adding quality to the good youth players we have.

 

[Saint Domingo]

lol.

I think some of our fans set themselves up for a huge level of frustration watching the club if this is their attitude. How many clubs in English Football have ever won a 'Quadruple'? City are one of the greatest English sides in the last 25 years and they're not going to do it. They're also backed by owners who are among the richest in World Football with a squad of World Class players, we aren't.

Success happens in stages unless it is a complete once in a lifetime type achievement like Leicester's. At present we're not even sure to finish 'best of the rest' ahead of Burnley or Bournemouth. Like Spurs are doing (still haven't won a trophy and lose in any big away game/crunch game at Wembley in the Cups against the top sides like we do though), our progress will most likely have to be steady and involve adding quality to the good youth players we have.

It’s not about winning a quadruple. It’s about wanting to win one, aspiring to win one. You ask the kopites over the park and despite not winning the league for so long they still make it their mission to try and do so and they’ve come close. When they’re in the CL despite being one of the weakest teams they go out to win it, same as in the Europa League. We don’t. We start each season with the manager setting out to get 40 points. We would never dream of winning the Europa League and we chuck away the domestic cups. When this happens every season we just get ‘ah well we can now focus on finishing 7th’. We have become immune to complete and utter mediocrity.

 

[davek]

But in the previous 11 seasons it was 13th. What did you expect from him, to have us ahead of clubs like Chelsea each season when they had the Abramovic money and we had the limited finances we had?

Arguably the best team goal of the last 15-20 years for our club came under Moyes' "dullard hoofball" by the way. Against Larissa when Osman scored.

Lol.

 

[Dabluez]

It is okay saying we have probably the 7th best squad but what we haven't got is players Walcott apart who would get into the majority of the teams above us. In years gone by we had one or two genuine top class players who we could of added to if we had money.

Now we have money and we have spent it badly. To challenge for the top 4 which should be our aim at this stage would take a huge amount of money. That money would need to be spent widely and we would need stability.

We need to get back to basics have a root and branch clear out and come up with a plan of how we aim to progress. I think that needs someone who knows the game and who can be trusted with huge decisions. That person currently isn't at the Club and it is up to Moshiri to bring him in.

 

[TraffordBlue]

It’s not about winning a quadruple. It’s about wanting to win one, aspiring to win one. You ask the kopites over the park and despite not winning the league for so long they still make it their mission to try and do so and they’ve come close. When they’re in the CL despite being one of the weakest teams they go out to win it, same as in the Europa League. We don’t. We start each season with the manager setting out to get 40 points. We would never dream of winning the Europa League and we chuck away the domestic cups. When this happens every season we just get ‘ah well we can now focus on finishing 7th’. We have become immune to complete and utter mediocrity.

I don't disagree too much with that to be honest, and I probably misunderstood @Yarrgh's post as I do agree with both (if that is what he was meaning) about aiming to do as well as possible in every competition. I don't believe we should ever 'sacrifice' any chance of winning a trophy because who knows what can happen in a cup competition. In a one off game, any team stands a chance.

There definitely needs to be a change in mentality and sadly Moshiri summed up what you are getting at with his 'expected losses' thing earlier in the season. Why can teams like Bournemouth go to Stamford Bridge whilst being at risk of relegation and beat them 3-0 yet we have been there for 24 years straight and not won a single game there in the league? Our derby record is a disgrace, and it comes down to an inferiority complex.

I just think it is a bit far fetched to expect an immediate change in our fortunes, but changing that weak mentality the club has developed would be a start. The away form is something that should be put right instantly and is well within our grasp. There is absolutely no reason why we can't go to Watford and Burnley and bring back 6 points but we all know it won't happen.

 

[Lanolin]

I don't think Moyes dampened expectations quite as much as people think. I think he just happened to be manager at a time when a large percentage of the fanbase (not just our fanbase, that of 3/4 of the league) started to come to terms with the fact that football had changed. The days of starting every season thinking you might just be able to do something special had gone, and we were seeing the same teams at the top of the league season after season.

Realists, like myself and probably 90% of our fans, understood that finishing 5th and 6th was a pretty decent achievement in the climate, and while we didn't think it was absolutely incredible and worth celebrating, nor did we think it should be denigrated. People were convinced that Moyes's attitude was holding us back, but it wasn't was it? Martinez was the polar opposite in terms of attitude and soundbites, he achieved nothing and took us backwards, Koeman was the mythical 'winner' (whatever the hell that means) that everybody wanted, but he failed too.

When we lost in the final in 2009 did everybody just say 'ah we had a go'? Not a chance, we were livid. 9 years on there are still people who have never forgiven Hibbert and Osman, basically for not being as good as Cole and Malouda. Our fans were unbelievable that day, taking over the whole stadium, and every single player put everything they had into it. We wanted it more than them, I'm sure of it. Unfortunately, wanting something and being good enough to get it are not the same thing. We don't win stuff because we're not good enough, it's simple. Better manager + better players = better chance of winning something. At no point in my time watching Everton have we ever had a team which should win trophies, and no amount of me shouting obscenities at Kenwright would have changed that.

 

[Yarrgh]

lol.

I think some of our fans set themselves up for a huge level of frustration watching the club if this is their attitude. How many clubs in English Football have ever won a 'Quadruple'? City are one of the greatest English sides in the last 25 years and they're not going to do it. They're also backed by owners who are among the richest in World Football with a squad of World Class players, we aren't.

Success happens in stages unless it is a complete once in a lifetime type achievement like Leicester's. At present we're not even sure to finish 'best of the rest' ahead of Burnley or Bournemouth. Like Spurs are doing (still haven't won a trophy and lose in any big away game/crunch game at Wembley in the Cups against the top sides like we do though), our progress will most likely have to be steady and involve adding quality to the good youth players we have.

None I think is the answer to your question. A quadruple is extremely hard to pull off. The number of trebles and doubles is fairly low too - even the likes of United who have won a few still hark back to each one as a special occasion.

It's still should be the goal though. I wouldn't be frustrated if the team gave it their all and ended up short, knowing that we'd be going again from a better place, the season afterwards.

At the minute it seems we are treading water though. Aspiring to 7th is not good enough. We should be trying to break that top 6 and top 4, and trying to perform well in Europe. As fans we should demand we go for the best. We shouldn't beat up on a team that is trying to do that, but if they ain't trying then we should let them know - hence why I am not particularly upset over the treatment of Schneiderlin who is under-performing, but can't overly criticise Martina or Niasse who do their best but are limited. I can't see quadruples yet I'm afraid, but we should at least have that mindset. We should be set up to maximise our efforts in each competition we're in, to try and get ourselves in a position where we can challenge for them and capitalise on other teams if they have off days.

 

[TraffordBlue]

None I think is the answer to your question. A quadruple is extremely hard to pull off. The number of trebles and doubles is fairly low too - even the likes of United who have won a few still hark back to each one as a special occasion.

It's still should be the goal though. I wouldn't be frustrated if the team gave it their all and ended up short, knowing that we'd be going again from a better place, the season afterwards.

At the minute it seems we are treading water though. Aspiring to 7th is not good enough. We should be trying to break that top 6 and top 4, and trying to perform well in Europe. As fans we should demand we go for the best. We shouldn't beat up on a team that is trying to do that, but if they ain't trying then we should let them know - hence why I am not particularly upset over the treatment of Schneiderlin who is under-performing, but can't overly criticise Martina or Niasse who do their best but are limited. I can't see quadruples yet I'm afraid, but we should at least have that mindset. We should be set up to maximise our efforts in each competition we're in, to try and get ourselves in a position where we can challenge for them and capitalise on other teams if they have off days.

Fair points, and I agree with you.

 

[Big Neville Southall]

You didnt mention the utter wannabe ultra bellends who want a singing section.

And the tryhards who sing "Stand up if you love the blues", but on the main you captured the entitlement that certain sections of our fanbase contain.

Or the bellends who are too narrow minded to realise that some fans do want to stand and sing at the match. Goodison was famed for having standing and seats on all 4 sides, because we have always had fans who like both. Singing and chanting at Everton has existed since the 19th Century because some fans enjoy it, it does not make them bellend just because you are not into it.