Tuition Fees

[Bruce Wayne]

That's working under the assumption that stupid foreigners are somehow buying their way into our universities. As someone that's hoping to apply to some American universities I can assure you it doesn't work that way. Universities trade on their academic reputation. If they started diluting that for the sake of a few quid they'd soon be out of business.

As a nation we're fighting a global battle for talent. You must appreciate that in many of the so called harder subjects such as maths, engineering, the sciences, even IT, we don't have enough native talent, so it must be imported. I believe around half of all PHD's in science and engineering in America are foreigners. Britain remains an attractive location for these talented people, but we can't rest on our laurels and not invest in our universities. They don't get money from alumni, there's no money to give them from the government. Students are the obvious (only) remaining source.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

Another thing is that they need to promote skilled trade qualifications, rather than stuff like English and History - which is not useful for most people who don't want to go into teaching or take a post-graduate course.

Went around my old comprehensive the other week as daughter will be going next year, used to be a couple of metalwork rooms, couple woodwork, couple tech drawing....all gone, 1 room now where they have 1 machine that an chop out mdf (cnc router) and plastics, the basic skills learned in the old rooms will have been beneficial to many that become tradesmen of whatever ilk, tbh I can't see what they are doing now being as beneficial to as many, the computer does the majority of the work without the pupils having to have the knowledge required.

As a nation we're fighting a global battle for talent. You must appreciate that in many of the so called harder subjects such as maths, engineering, the sciences, even IT, we don't have enough native talent, so it must be imported. I believe around half of all PHD's in science and engineering in America are foreigners. Britain remains an attractive location for these talented people, but we can't rest on our laurels and not invest in our universities. They don't get money from alumni, there's no money to give them from the government. Students are the obvious (only) remaining source.

unfortunately most of the engineering has gone, I would bet that since I finished my apprenticeship in '89 there won't have been 1500 fully indentured apprentices, which is where most of the grads came from as it would be after doing hnc etc as apprentices that they would go on to uni (usually sponsored), at that time it was quite easy to get into cambridge as they had a shortfall of pupils, a lot of us looked at it but deemed it to be a waste of time, as anything learned would have been defunct and there wouldn't be a job to go to at the end of it all, you'd just be a bloke on a lathe....with a degree.
Of course with hindsight, a degree from cambridge would probably stand you in good stead whatever it was in.

 

[davek]

For me the issue isn't about the money. I would go into debt for a decent degree and job prospect. But far too many degrees out there are completely useless in the real world.

I know loads of people who have either changed their degree half way, done another one because they took the wrong useless degree, are graduates working in the restaurant business.

These people got into debt to have **** all to show for it at the end other than a piece of paper.

The amount of jobs I applied for up here for graduates that asked for experience too was just crazy. Need a job to get experience, come back next year, and so on...

If the government are going to slap a 30k debt on people then they need to work hard at getting people from Colleges, through University and into a career - where they will:

1. Earn enough money to repay the loans.
2. Improve the workforce in this country.
3. Generate an improved economy through enterprising ventures - post graduation.

Another thing is that they need to promote skilled trade qualifications, rather than stuff like English and History - which is not useful for most people who don't want to go into teaching or take a post-graduate course.

So, good degrees are vocational and useless degrees are in the social sciences?

 

[GhostOfDixie]

So, good degrees are vocational and useless degrees are in the social sciences?

Well I think it really depends on where you see your future.

I mean we can all go to Hollywood looking for a career in the movies, but most of us end up either in rehab, coffee houses or porn.

 

[davek]

That's working under the assumption that stupid foreigners are somehow buying their way into our universities. As someone that's hoping to apply to some American universities I can assure you it doesn't work that way. Universities trade on their academic reputation. If they started diluting that for the sake of a few quid they'd soon be out of business.

As a nation we're fighting a global battle for talent. You must appreciate that in many of the so called harder subjects such as maths, engineering, the sciences, even IT, we don't have enough native talent, so it must be imported. I believe around half of all PHD's in science and engineering in America are foreigners. Britain remains an attractive location for these talented people, but we can't rest on our laurels and not invest in our universities. They don't get money from alumni, there's no money to give them from the government. Students are the obvious (only) remaining source.

The quid pro quo of that American system of panhandling former graduates is that, in return for smoothing the way into Columbia, Cornell, Yale, Harvard etc for junior, bursaries are made available for bright kids from less comfortable backgrounds. It amounts to a self perpetuating elite hiding behind the facade of a meritocratic system 'at work'. The fact I have to tell you this is incredible.

 

[Brownie]

So you don't want talented people coming to this country? Sorry Messi, no room at the inn.

It's more like if Fabregas (as he probably will eventually) had gone back to Spain when he was 18. Our regards for the education Arsenal, we'll have him back now thanks. And then La Liga is improved, as is their national team. Except students don't command transfer fees, so we literally get nothing but the money from the tuition fees and the money they spend whilst in the UK.

From a strategic point of view, as in the competition of countries, it is so short sighted. As usual, Britain is being taken in by the short term gain rather than planning for the future. I can see other nations looking back and laughing at how easily they milked our premium resources.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

The quid pro quo of that American system of panhandling former graduates is that, in return for smoothing the way into Columbia, Cornell, Yale, Harvard etc for junior, bursaries are made available for bright kids from less comfortable backgrounds. It amounts to a self perpetuating elite hiding behind the facade of a meritocratic system 'at work'. The fact I have to tell you this is incredible.

Sorry mate, been a long day - but are you saying the American educational system is flawed and only the rich ivy league and david love IIIs get all the best.

 

[davek]

Well I think it really depends on where you see your future.

I mean we can all go to Hollywood looking for a career in the movies, but most of us end up either in rehab, coffee houses or porn.

I'd say it depends on the values you have too. Fair enough, we all roll our eyes at someone taking a media and cultural studies course, but I'd find that more defensible than some self serving money grabber taking a degree in the dismal 'science' of business marketing or business administration. At least the former seeks some form of reflection on who and what we are - the type of existential questions that define us as human beings, I believe.

 

[davek]

Sorry mate, been a long day - but are you saying the American educational system is flawed and only the rich ivy league and david love IIIs get all the best.

I'm saying they attract the brightest and they attract the not so brightest who have mom and dads money - they can have it both ways because an Ivy League degree is gold.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

I'm saying they attract the brightest and they attract the not so brightest who have mom and dads money - they can have it both ways because an Ivy League degree is gold.

Absolutely. Some startling stats coming from Oxbridge cultural graduates.

 

[alexishelmsley]

Its a sad day to be honest - I've said it many times, but for me, going to Uni was a MUST. I wanted to be a teacher, I went, did the hard work for 3 years, then went back to get my teaching degree. I dont regret a penny of my loans - but the higher tuition fees would make me think twice now, especially given the problems i encountered whilst at uni. It'll also have dire affects on Education in general, as the government are making it virtually impossible to become a teacher without a degree! Then, when they're crying out for teachers, they'll wonder why...

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I'd say it depends on the values you have too. Fair enough, we all roll our eyes at someone taking a media and cultural studies course, but I'd find that more defensible than some self serving money grabber taking a degree in the dismal 'science' of business marketing or business administration. At least the former seeks some form of reflection on who and what we are - the type of existential questions that define us as human beings, I believe.

I've no doubt it's looked at but you make it sound like the vast majority of the student body each year are there because mom and pop are chucking some quid at the uni. Seriously Dave, out of the thousands that enrol each year how many are there out of commercial nepotism? You seem to be very certain of this phenomenom so it must be well documented

It's more like if Fabregas (as he probably will eventually) had gone back to Spain when he was 18. Our regards for the education Arsenal, we'll have him back now thanks. And then La Liga is improved, as is their national team. Except students don't command transfer fees, so we literally get nothing but the money from the tuition fees and the money they spend whilst in the UK.

From a strategic point of view, as in the competition of countries, it is so short sighted. As usual, Britain is being taken in by the short term gain rather than planning for the future. I can see other nations looking back and laughing at how easily they milked our premium resources.

Most of the foreign guys I studied with are still living and working here. We just need to be a bit more self confident and not fall into the Daily Mail trap that foreign people are here to rape and pillage.

I'd say it depends on the values you have too. Fair enough, we all roll our eyes at someone taking a media and cultural studies course, but I'd find that more defensible than some self serving money grabber taking a degree in the dismal 'science' of business marketing or business administration. At least the former seeks some form of reflection on who and what we are - the type of existential questions that define us as human beings, I believe.

Feeling the love there Dave I could get a patch on my elbow and read some Marx if that'd make you feel my education would be more worthwhile?

 

[Brownie]

Most of the foreign guys I studied with are still living and working here. We just need to be a bit more self confident and not fall into the Daily Mail trap that foreign people are here to rape and pillage.

I would guess they're the ones you know, rather than the thousands that are almost exclusively friends with other international students and go back home when they're finished.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I don't personally see a problem with that, it's their choice after all. It isn't like they're taking the place or opportunity away from an English student. My masters class had three English students in it, the rest were all foreign. The majority of those (certainly all that I'm still in contact with) are living and working here.

 

[Brownie]

I don't personally see a problem with that, it's their choice after all. It isn't like they're taking the place or opportunity away from an English student. My masters class had three English students in it, the rest were all foreign. The majority of those (certainly all that I'm still in contact with) are living and working here.

If I had some valuable resource that could directly shape my future, I wouldn't share it with my rival, whether I was using it to its full capacity or not.

I don't want to come across as anti-foreign here, I hope I'm not, I just believe Britain is really, really poor at this kind of long term international strategy.