Tuition Fees

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Do you mean the poor and lower classes by this?

No, I mean the basic street trash that you & I ridicule on a daily basis (you know, the girl in her uggs with curlers in on Bold St on a Saturday afternoon?), except that this time a University will be making on average £10'000 out of them because of Student tuition loans.

The people that would not be accepted if it were not for getting their £££'s. = What i'm on about.

It is a shame that no matter how intellectually stimulated you are (the case for so many working or "lower class" people) , if you ain't got the dough to cough up (or are lucky enough to get a highly-coveted scholarship) you won't have a chance. But hey, you don't get nothing in this life for free.
 
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Oh look, it's the Tories being the Tories with their new side kick, the Lib Dems.

I wonder how many groups of non wealthy people they can [Poor language removed] before they're booted out?
 
Taking politics out of it for a minute, our universities need more money to compete in an increasingly global marketplace. That's a fact. It's also a fact that we desperately need our universities to attract as much global talent as they currently do for our economic well being.

So universities need more money. This is simply a case of getting that extra money from people that use and benefit from the service provided (ie the students), or from those that don't (ie the tax payer). It's got naff all to do with hurting the downtrodden working classes. You don't call the club Thatcherite when they raise ticket prices to pay for the latest Carlos Kickerball, yet it is far more so than what's happening with our universities here, where bursaries will be offered to the poor and academically able.

As it is, even for the highest charging uni, 27k represents £30 a week for the pre-uni life of your child. Do without ***s and booze and you're there right?
 

Taking politics out of it for a minute, our universities need more money to compete in an increasingly global marketplace. That's a fact. It's also a fact that we desperately need our universities to attract as much global talent as they currently do for our economic well being.

So universities need more money. This is simply a case of getting that extra money from people that use and benefit from the service provided (ie the students), or from those that don't (ie the tax payer). It's got naff all to do with hurting the downtrodden working classes. You don't call the club Thatcherite when they raise ticket prices to pay for the latest Carlos Kickerball, yet it is far more so than what's happening with our universities here, where bursaries will be offered to the poor and academically able.

As it is, even for the highest charging uni, 27k represents £30 a week for the pre-uni life of your child. Do without ***s and booze and you're there right?

Do the working classes all excessively drink and smoke then? Tutting at your typecasting there Mr W.

Lets put it this way, I would not have been able to go to University* if these rules were in place when I was 18. My mum simply couldn't afford it bringing me up mostly** on her own. And I wouldn't expect her to give up her smoking or her drinking as she balanced three jobs to put food on the table and keep me clothed, going without any luxuries herself.

You see, it's not always that simple mate, we struggled and I know plenty of people who do struggle, most of my mates to be honest despite them all holding down decent*** jobs that they work hard at.

Although I do hold some similar views to you in terms of social and self responsibility, there are many who are dealt a really shitty hand. These people need the help of the government that they pay tax too, that's what a good society does. I do alright and have some savings but it doesn't stop me really wanting to see those around me get a fairer deal.

VIVA MARX.


Key:

* I didn't go to Uni anyway.

** With some help from the milkman and his friends.

*** They're dealers.
 
Taking politics out of it for a minute, our universities need more money to compete in an increasingly global marketplace. That's a fact. It's also a fact that we desperately need our universities to attract as much global talent as they currently do for our economic well being.

So universities need more money. This is simply a case of getting that extra money from people that use and benefit from the service provided (ie the students), or from those that don't (ie the tax payer). It's got naff all to do with hurting the downtrodden working classes. You don't call the club Thatcherite when they raise ticket prices to pay for the latest Carlos Kickerball, yet it is far more so than what's happening with our universities here, where bursaries will be offered to the poor and academically able.

As it is, even for the highest charging uni, 27k represents £30 a week for the pre-uni life of your child. Do without ***s and booze and you're there right?

What about the child though Bruce? Plenty of students have to pay their own way through uni. They're already going to have to work off the debt that the previous generation accrued, but yeah we might as well charge them even more for the privilege.
 
Do the working classes all excessively drink and smoke then? Tutting at your typecasting there Mr W.

Lets put it this way, I would not have been able to go to University* if these rules were in place when I was 18. My mum simply couldn't afford it bringing me up mostly** on her own. And I wouldn't expect her to give up her smoking or her drinking as she balanced three jobs to put food on the table and keep me clothed, going without any luxuries herself.
.

Haha, no I wasn't saying that, just that a typical night out at a weekend, or a trip to a footy match or whatever can easily cost £30, so it is possible for many people to save it if they really want. Besides, a) bursaries are available to those unable to afford things, and b) the fees aren't payable until after due to the student loans.

What about the child though Bruce? Plenty of students have to pay their own way through uni. They're already going to have to work off the debt that the previous generation accrued, but yeah we might as well charge them even more for the privilege.

But yeah I can see this point, especially with regards to things like getting on the housing ladder. It becomes a bitch, and I'm finding that just as much as anyone. It aint easy. Philosophically though, if someone uses a service, in this case receiving a uni education, then they should be the ones that pay for it. I mean you mention the poor, should they have to pay through their taxes for someone else to go to uni? I don't think so. You use something and the responsibility rests with you.

One thing this will do is ensure many of the rubbish degrees go to the wall as people will crunch the numbers and tell the unis to do one.
 
No, I mean the basic street trash that you & I ridicule on a daily basis (you know, the girl in her uggs with curlers in on Bold St on a Saturday afternoon?), except that this time a University will be making on average £10'000 out of them because of Student tuition loans.

The people that would not be accepted if it were not for getting their £££'s. = What i'm on about.

It is a shame that no matter how intellectually stimulated you are (the case for so many working or "lower class" people) , if you ain't got the dough to cough up (or are lucky enough to get a highly-coveted scholarship) you won't have a chance. But hey, you don't get nothing in this life for free.

I think that is an extraordinary generalisation there mate. The 'girl in her uggs and coolers' in theory could be a Nobel Peace Prize winner. It seems you have judged people on how they dress or appear. I know there is the mings in lessons (i noticed you mentioned Edge Hill, u must of remembered i go there) who disrupt, but they are in the minority and don't normally succeed, the large majority don't half work hard at uni's everywhere.

Isn't it sad then therefore that this Government is socially determining who goes to University. They are creating a wealthy vs poor, lower class vs upper class and dare i say it, another north vs south that was created in the 80s.

I'm not asking for things to be free, i'm asking for fairness. Luckily for you though, the girl in her uggs and the lads in there adidas trackies won't be around uni's for much longer
 

Flip it round Cena. It is in the universities best interest to have the brightest people attending. If there is a bright but poor kid I'm certain they will find a way to get them enrolled. Have a look here http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Educati...dentFinance/Applyingforthefirsttime/DG_171571

Of course it's unfortunate that we don't seem to have the same culture here as in America whereby alumni give financially to their alma mater. See this article published recently by Civitas - http://www.civitas.org.uk/wordpress/2010/10/14/whats-the-alma-matter/. Compare the endowment at Harvard to that at Oxford, it's incredible, especially as fees to attend Harvard are waaaaay more than to attend Oxford.
 
I think that is an extraordinary generalisation there mate. The 'girl in her uggs and coolers' in theory could be a Nobel Peace Prize winner. It seems you have judged people on how they dress or appear. I know there is the mings in lessons (i noticed you mentioned Edge Hill, u must of remembered i go there) who disrupt, but they are in the minority and don't normally succeed, the large majority don't half work hard at uni's everywhere.

Isn't it sad then therefore that this Government is socially determining who goes to University. They are creating a wealthy vs poor, lower class vs upper class and dare i say it, another north vs south that was created in the 80s.

I'm not asking for things to be free, i'm asking for fairness. Luckily for you though, the girl in her uggs and the lads in there adidas trackies won't be around uni's for much longer

I know it's a generalisation matey, but the 3 or 4 people that constantly disrupted my Criminology class would have been gone in a flash if they weren't paying through the roof to be there.

The "uggs and curlers" theory was the easiest way I could get my point across, I wasn't judging on appearance, I was judging on the unbelievably unprofessional, idiotic and pathetic attitude to work that certain University students have today.

It's about who wants to learn, the small minority of people that don't want to learn should not be allowed in. Unfortunately this country (and most western societies) are run by the people who have money to spend, which of course, benefits certain people more than others, but also causes alot of problems.

If Hibbert showed up late every day, smoked 40 while training, called Moyes all the names under the sun and was involved in lots of off field incidents that generated bad press, would Moyes keep him and say nothing purely because Hibbo comes from a working class family from Huyton?

No, he'd tell him where to fuking go. I want Universities to do the same thing to people who don't have the right attitude.

However, i'm not basing my argument on class, i'm just using that as an example. It's all about attitude.

Forget my original comment, I realise that it's very one dimensional and rather plain sighted, my above post is how I stand on Universities.
 
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Flip it round Cena. It is in the universities best interest to have the brightest people attending. If there is a bright but poor kid I'm certain they will find a way to get them enrolled. Have a look here http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Educati...dentFinance/Applyingforthefirsttime/DG_171571

Of course it's unfortunate that we don't seem to have the same culture here as in America whereby alumni give financially to their alma mater. See this article published recently by Civitas - http://www.civitas.org.uk/wordpress/2010/10/14/whats-the-alma-matter/. Compare the endowment at Harvard to that at Oxford, it's incredible, especially as fees to attend Harvard are waaaaay more than to attend Oxford.

Bruce, have you ever applied for a bursary or a scholarship? It isn't as simple as 'we are poor so give me some money to apply'. Not only are there many factors to even getting one, they are from my experience, very unfair. I applied for a bursary when i started, as there was no way i could afford to live on the basic maintenance loan and my mum could not afford to support me fully even though she tried her best. I was refused any bursary or funding on the basis that i had worked full time between the ages of 18-20 and it was determined that i should of been able to support myself. The reason they gave aswell was that i was still living at home during this period. If i had my own place i would of recieved funding. It was as if i was being punished for actually going and getting a job, and contributing to the country through paying tax.

I don't fully understand the American system of the alumni 'giving back' but could you really see that working here? Not a chance - it would be like the American's adopting healthcare ;-). If the attitude is that there is people with the wrong attitude attending university in this country, why would anyone want to pay for them?

I know it's a generalisation matey, but the 3 or 4 people that constantly disrupted my Criminology class would have been gone in a flash if they weren't paying through the roof to be there.

The "uggs and curlers" theory was the easiest way I could get my point across, I wasn't judging on appearance, I was judging on the unbelievably unprofessional, idiotic and pathetic attitude to work that certain University students have today.

It's about who wants to learn, the small minority of people that don't want to learn should not be allowed in. Unfortunately this country (and most western societies) are run by the people who have money to spend, which of course, benefits certain people more than others, but also causes alot of problems.

If Hibbert showed up late every day, smoked 40 while training, called Moyes all the names under the sun and was involved in lots of off field incidents that generated bad press, would Moyes keep him and say nothing purely because Hibbo comes from a working class family from Huyton?

No, he'd tell him where to fuking go. I want Universities to do the same thing to people who don't have the right attitude.

However, i'm not basing my argument on class, i'm just using that as an example. It's all about attitude.

Forget my original comment, I realise that it's very one dimensional and rather plain sighted, my above post is how I stand on Universities.

Have to say mate that is a fabulous reply. Seriously, don't want that coming across sarcastic, it really is!

The point about Hibbo is correct, of course Moyes wouldn't put up with that. But my point is, it seems that the attitude that people lack is being associated with the working classes or the 'uggs & trackies' brigade. Not saying that is the point you made, i'm saying that is the point that is generally made. Why aren't the upper classes ever associated with bad behaviour and attitude? Is it because, as with anything, money always gets them out of a hole?

Moyes would tell Hibbert were to go, regardless of his class, of course, and you want Universities to do the same thing. How do you police that? How do you dertermine (apart from the obvious lack of interest and wrong attitude) who is right or wrong for university? Is the answer simply raise tuition fees? To me it seems the argument for the rise in fees will filter out the scum, why is it though that this 'scum' is associated with the lower class? Again not saying that is the point you are making, i'm saying that is the general point being made by people who i have spoken too, heard through media or read about.
 
Will bursaries be there for all the best and under privileged? Try thousands competing for just a handful of places. And what benefit do graduates have to society? Well, apart from earning more and therefore paying more tax... Frank Gallagher will eventually need a competent surgeon to perform his triple bypass, Caruthers will require a financial expert to manage his stock, the country will need the best financial experts to perform the what used to be 13% of GDP financial sector, and lets not forget those at the other end of the pay structure, like those thousands of nurses, physios, therapists. A good place to start cutting though would be to curb frivolent law firms making a mint from bogus accident claims. That slime can go to the wall.
 
Bruce, have you ever applied for a bursary or a scholarship? It isn't as simple as 'we are poor so give me some money to apply'. Not only are there many factors to even getting one, they are from my experience, very unfair. I applied for a bursary when i started, as there was no way i could afford to live on the basic maintenance loan and my mum could not afford to support me fully even though she tried her best. I was refused any bursary or funding on the basis that i had worked full time between the ages of 18-20 and it was determined that i should of been able to support myself. The reason they gave aswell was that i was still living at home during this period. If i had my own place i would of recieved funding. It was as if i was being punished for actually going and getting a job, and contributing to the country through paying tax.

I don't fully understand the American system of the alumni 'giving back' but could you really see that working here? Not a chance - it would be like the American's adopting healthcare ;-). If the attitude is that there is people with the wrong attitude attending university in this country, why would anyone want to pay for them?

No, I haven't ever applied for one so don't have any personal experience. To play devils advocate though they might have looked on your situation has someone with two years of income and minimal expenses (assuming your ma wasn't charging you rent) and as such you could have had some savings to pay for things.

Again, just playing devils advocate here, if Suits is right and there is a limited pot available (probable), then there could be AN Other smart kid who had all of your problems but went straight from school without having two years to build up a 'nest egg'.

So it might simply have been that there are others out there that were more in need than you were, rather than them saying you weren't in need.

I went through a similar thing when I did my masters. Suffice to say the course was still subsidized in relation to what the overseas guys on the course were paying (and huge respect for them because they're often coming from really poor countries and pay a whole lot to come here), but you don't really get loans or any of that so it had to be self funded. Meant saving a lot in the run-up and working in the evenings/weekend during the academic year. Sure it could have been easier with more money, but hey, we're Evertonians, if life was easy we'd have some gazillionaire who'd let us do the whole 'Championship Manager in cheat mode' thing :lol:
 

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