Tuition Fees

[davek]

Flip it round Cena. It is in the universities best interest to have the brightest people attending. If there is a bright but poor kid I'm certain they will find a way to get them enrolled. Have a look here http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Educati...dentFinance/Applyingforthefirsttime/DG_171571

Of course it's unfortunate that we don't seem to have the same culture here as in America whereby alumni give financially to their alma mater. See this article published recently by Civitas - http://www.civitas.org.uk/wordpress/2010/10/14/whats-the-alma-matter/. Compare the endowment at Harvard to that at Oxford, it's incredible, especially as fees to attend Harvard are waaaaay more than to attend Oxford.

I get those begging phone calls all the time from the universities I've attended.

They can fcuk right off, cheeky bastards. Whatever I've received in grants and scholarships I've well paid back into the taxes they came from in the first place...and then some. I'm not alone in that attitude either. Even at the elite Russell Group of universities, donations to 'one's Alma Mater' (FFS, I hate that term) are well below 10% of former students. Fcuk knows what the rate of donating is at the polyversities - zero I should think. There's a reason why we diverge from America on this: if you distrust government and taxation, as many of them do, you take an active interest in picking and choosing where you want your money to go. It's a different mentality to us. Another thing: the benefactor system in the US has been criticised for encouraging control of university admissions policy: donors getting their kids places as undergraduates in Ivy League unis etc. It pretty much stinks, tbh.

 

[Cena]

No, I haven't ever applied for one so don't have any personal experience. To play devils advocate though they might have looked on your situation has someone with two years of income and minimal expenses (assuming your ma wasn't charging you rent) and as such you could have had some savings to pay for things.

Again, just playing devils advocate here, if Suits is right and there is a limited pot available (probable), then there could be AN Other smart kid who had all of your problems but went straight from school without having two years to build up a 'nest egg'.

So it might simply have been that there are others out there that were more in need than you were, rather than them saying you weren't in need.

I went through a similar thing when I did my masters. Suffice to say the course was still subsidized in relation to what the overseas guys on the course were paying (and huge respect for them because they're often coming from really poor countries and pay a whole lot to come here), but you don't really get loans or any of that so it had to be self funded. Meant saving a lot in the run-up and working in the evenings/weekend during the academic year. Sure it could have been easier with more money, but hey, we're Evertonians, if life was easy we'd have some gazillionaire who'd let us do the whole 'Championship Manager in cheat mode' thing

I wouldn't say you are playing devil's advocate there mate, i'd imagine that could be a reason perhaps why i didn't get a bursary. It certainly seems a plausible explanation. However, do you think it is fair? Say myself and student 'X' were in that same position, shouldn't we both receive some of the pot? Granted, it is a limited one, but surely when University Chancellors are on six-figure salaries (more than the Prime Minister), i don't see how it is fair.

There is something not right there surely. Cutting jobs and creating social exclusion isn't the answer, educating the youth, creating skilled people and training people for qualifications such as doctors, engineers, teachers etc is how we get this country right. Simply bracketing people into 'Jeremy Kyle scals' doesn't work for me, get these people educated and see just how well they'l develop. Going a bit of tack, but i have a point in there somewhere haha

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I wouldn't say you are playing devil's advocate there mate, i'd imagine that could be a reason perhaps why i didn't get a bursary. It certainly seems a plausible explanation. However, do you think it is fair? Say myself and student 'X' were in that same position, shouldn't we both receive some of the pot? Granted, it is a limited one, but surely when University Chancellors are on six-figure salaries (more than the Prime Minister), i don't see how it is fair.

There is something not right there surely. Cutting jobs and creating social exclusion isn't the answer, educating the youth, creating skilled people and training people for qualifications such as doctors, engineers, teachers etc is how we get this country right. Simply bracketing people into 'Jeremy Kyle scals' doesn't work for me, get these people educated and see just how well they'l develop. Going a bit of tack, but i have a point in there somewhere haha

Sure, it isn't fair that our elders went through university free of charge with a grant to help them on their way. The whole baby boom generation have had a tremendous deal financially from things when you think about it, but you can't do a whole lot about that. If you want something bad enough then you just have to try a bit harder. Seth Godin isn't to everyone's tastes but one of his books is called The Dip, and the basic premise is that in any worthwhile endeavour there will come a point when you decide whether to quit or not. If you can push through that then you stand a good chance of doing well because so many will have dropped out. Very basic summary but you get the gist.

 

[Summerskin]

Have to say mate that is a fabulous reply. Seriously, don't want that coming across sarcastic, it really is!

The point about Hibbo is correct, of course Moyes wouldn't put up with that. But my point is, it seems that the attitude that people lack is being associated with the working classes or the 'uggs & trackies' brigade. Not saying that is the point you made, i'm saying that is the point that is generally made. Why aren't the upper classes ever associated with bad behaviour and attitude? Is it because, as with anything, money always gets them out of a hole?

Moyes would tell Hibbert were to go, regardless of his class, of course, and you want Universities to do the same thing. How do you police that? How do you dertermine (apart from the obvious lack of interest and wrong attitude) who is right or wrong for university? Is the answer simply raise tuition fees? To me it seems the argument for the rise in fees will filter out the scum, why is it though that this 'scum' is associated with the lower class? Again not saying that is the point you are making, i'm saying that is the general point being made by people who i have spoken too, heard through media or read about.

Glad you got where I was coming from fella.

You're right, society does predominantly pin failure and bad attitude on those deemed "pooer" or lower in the food chain, I believe that regardless of class, skin colour or wealth, if you're attitude stinks, you shouldn't be doing it, hence where the Hibbo argument came from, to give us something to relate to.

How to police it though? You're right, it is a super complex issue, which raising fees will not solve. You could argue that Universities should have more rigourous vetting proceedures but due to our economy, Universities (like every other business at this time) will look for the quick buck rather than integrity.

So until we get out of this economic mire things won't be changing.

I'm a massive advocate for education as I love learning, so University was a shock for me when I saw so many people that simply didn't give a toss about building their futures, this is why I have a very cut-throat attitude towards all of this.

 

[HirsuteBlue]

So until we get out of this economic mire things won't be changing.

I would like to believe that once the economic mess being cleaned up by those that didn't make it has been sorte that fee's would drop or be abolished, but through learning I know full well that once a charge has been introduced and is established that it will never ever be removed.

 

[Summerskin]

I would like to believe that once the economic mess being cleaned up by those that didn't make it has been sorte that fee's would drop or be abolished, but through learning I know full well that once a charge has been introduced and is established that it will never ever be removed.

I'd like to think so too, 'cause lets face it, every man and his dog has a degree nowadays, they do not hold a certain pedegree like they used to.

I doubt they will however, we all know that applications for Universities are at an all time high, so unless MASSIVE reform is put in place to clamp down on the fees, it looks like these institutions will carry on making an obscene amount of (somewhat easy) money.

 

[Brownie]

Flip it round Cena. It is in the universities best interest to have the brightest people attending. If there is a bright but poor kid I'm certain they will find a way to get them enrolled. Have a look here http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Educati...dentFinance/Applyingforthefirsttime/DG_171571

Of course it's unfortunate that we don't seem to have the same culture here as in America whereby alumni give financially to their alma mater. See this article published recently by Civitas - http://www.civitas.org.uk/wordpress/2010/10/14/whats-the-alma-matter/. Compare the endowment at Harvard to that at Oxford, it's incredible, especially as fees to attend Harvard are waaaaay more than to attend Oxford.

Is it really in their best interests? Who decides what those interests are? Certainly at the moment I'd say it's far more likely that the universities will be looking to squeeze any source of income they can. There are a hell of a lot of bright people in the world, if a university has a choice between two students with equal academic records, but one happens to be able to pay them nine thousand pounds, surely they will pick the one with the money. Look at how the number of international students at UK universities has conveniently skyrocketed as the universities' need for money has increased; they simply represent a better deal in the short term. Unfortunately after they've handed over their tuition fees, they'll be off elsewhere to make an awful lot more than fifteen grand... serving another country's economy.

To add to this, Universities wanting to charge over six grand will have to demonstrate to the "Office of Fair Access" that they're doing everything they can to ensure those from poorer backgrounds are given the same chance as those that can pay more. How they're going to make this any more than a "Did you really try your hardest?" test I don't know.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I doubt they will however, we all know that applications for Universities are at an all time high, so unless MASSIVE reform is put in place to clamp down on the fees, it looks like these institutions will carry on making an obscene amount of (somewhat easy) money.

Sadly many universities are anything but the cash cow they are made out to be. It's a frequent gripe that academics are poorly paid in relation to the qualifications and knowledge they hold.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Is it really in their best interests? Who decides what those interests are? Certainly at the moment I'd say it's far more likely that the universities will be looking to squeeze any source of income they can. There are a hell of a lot of bright people in the world, if a university has a choice between two students with equal academic records, but one happens to be able to pay them nine thousand pounds, surely they will pick the one with the money. Look at how the number of international students at UK universities has conveniently skyrocketed as the universities' need for money has increased; they simply represent a better deal in the short term. Unfortunately after they've handed over their tuition fees, they'll be off elsewhere to make an awful lot more than fifteen grand... serving another country's economy.

To add to this, Universities wanting to charge over six grand will have to demonstrate to the "Office of Fair Access" that they're doing everything they can to ensure those from poorer backgrounds are given the same chance as those that can pay more. How they're going to make this any more than a "Did you really try your hardest?" test I don't know.

You're right, international access has rocketed and I'm sure a part of that is that international students pay the 'full price' whereas UK students get their degrees subsidized by the government.

Quite a few foreign universities have taken to setting up campuses overseas to attempt to tap into that market, and I believe Nottingham University are one of the first UK institutions to do so.

If you look here - http://www.hesa.ac.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1900&Itemid=239 - there is about £400,000 profit across the whole higher education sector, and tuition fees make up just 28.7% of all income. Endowment income makes up less than 2%.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

So given the situation regarding Uni places, and that a lot are to be withdrawn etc etc, Is anything being put into place to train kids as they leave school ?
Given that a lot won't be going on to uni, will there be 'Proper' apprenticeships etc to train up the next generation, most businesses cant afford apprentices these days so will the government be doing something for them ?
It's just that if the kids are left to their xboxes and skunk, then all of a sudden they have been out of work for that long that they are unemployable and then when they are 25 years down the line they will then be criticised and vilified for being tossed on the scrapheap at 16.

 

[HirsuteBlue]

I'd like to think so too, 'cause lets face it, every man and his dog has a degree nowadays, they do not hold a certain pedegree like they used to.

I doubt they will however, we all know that applications for Universities are at an all time high, so unless MASSIVE reform is put in place to clamp down on the fees, it looks like these institutions will carry on making an obscene amount of (somewhat easy) money.

Oh they certainly do, it is just that those with degrees in the sciences and or medicine or top flight maths and accounting tend to
i) not have to look for a job at the JS+
ii) have a career path chosen instead of earning a mickey mouse degree and expecting the world to fall to its knees
iii) have a lot more common sense, shown by taking a degree that is difficult to achieve

It is very sad that some graduates have found getting a job so tough that they have sunk into despair and worse, common theme being 'media studies', 'performing arts', 'beauty and hairdressing'. Not everyone can be on TV, not everyone can star in Hollywood movies, and not everyone can cut the hair and do the nails of the rich and famous.

 

[davek]

Is it really in their best interests? Who decides what those interests are? Certainly at the moment I'd say it's far more likely that the universities will be looking to squeeze any source of income they can. There are a hell of a lot of bright people in the world, if a university has a choice between two students with equal academic records, but one happens to be able to pay them nine thousand pounds, surely they will pick the one with the money. Look at how the number of international students at UK universities has conveniently skyrocketed as the universities' need for money has increased; they simply represent a better deal in the short term. Unfortunately after they've handed over their tuition fees, they'll be off elsewhere to make an awful lot more than fifteen grand... serving another country's economy.

To add to this, Universities wanting to charge over six grand will have to demonstrate to the "Office of Fair Access" that they're doing everything they can to ensure those from poorer backgrounds are given the same chance as those that can pay more. How they're going to make this any more than a "Did you really try your hardest?" test I don't know.

Spot on. Which is why the Universities senates are arguing that foreign students should be exempt from the crackdown on non-EU nationals coming into Britain. They want special dispensation for them...just like the Tories are giving the non-EU nationals working for top businesses in Britain.

One way or another the rich will always find a way of getting their grubby paws on the best resources - university education included.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Spot on. Which is why the Universities senates are arguing that foreign students should be exempt from the crackdown on non-EU nationals coming into Britain. They want special dispensation for them...just like the Tories are giving the non-EU nationals working for top businesses in Britain.

One way or another the rich will always find a way of getting their grubby paws on the best resources - university education included.

So you don't want talented people coming to this country? Sorry Messi, no room at the inn.

 

[davek]

So you don't want talented people coming to this country? Sorry Messi, no room at the inn.

Strange conclusion to draw from what I offered, tbh. Perhaps you should read it again? The rich are not the individual units (employees, students, footballers) getting drawn from pillar to post to carry out their work; the rich are the institutions that benefit from all this. Good luck to the foreign students. I bear them no mallice. But that doesn't mean that they are the best candidates to receive a place, it just means their country of origin have the readies to force them through admissions...the same principle goes for the US alumni system of donations or bribes to get their kids and grandkids in a 'good' college. Strange that a meritocrat - which I presume you are - should be drawn to that corrupt system...but there you go.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

For me the issue isn't about the money. I would go into debt for a decent degree and job prospect. But far too many degrees out there are completely useless in the real world.

I know loads of people who have either changed their degree half way, done another one because they took the wrong useless degree, are graduates working in the restaurant business.

These people got into debt to have **** all to show for it at the end other than a piece of paper.

The amount of jobs I applied for up here for graduates that asked for experience too was just crazy. Need a job to get experience, come back next year, and so on...

If the government are going to slap a 30k debt on people then they need to work hard at getting people from Colleges, through University and into a career - where they will:

1. Earn enough money to repay the loans.
2. Improve the workforce in this country.
3. Generate an improved economy through enterprising ventures - post graduation.

Another thing is that they need to promote skilled trade qualifications, rather than stuff like English and History - which is not useful for most people who don't want to go into teaching or take a post-graduate course.