The Now-Irrelevant 2024/25 Relegation Battle (Without Everton!)

[GrandOldTeam]

That’s fair enough.

I do feel some people are unrealistic with their expectations as opposed to wanting positivity.

Already had one person say they felt he should have done better the team he had originally (subjective opinion) while claiming the lack of funds he had is irrelevant, despite that being an objective truth.

No neutral fans would expect a team being outspent heavily to compete with them. Yet that is often pushed as an argument by the anti Moyes people.

I get what you're saying.

I've shared before that we have a squad, including players on loan that we didn't pay for, 19th in terms of valuation/player fees. Only Ipswich have a squad of players, worth less than us.

We have the likes of Bournemouth fielding 2/3 players who cost more than our entire match day squad.

We're poor.

My expectation was 12th-17th. If I had the chance in the summer, I'd have skipped this season and finished 17th - it was always just about staying up for me and getting to the summer under new owners, to Bramley Moore as a Premier League team.

Now we're getting there, we need to shift that mentality though - I think the problem we're going to have is shifting mentality away from doom and gloom.

The manager has to lead in that - and it starts with not believing we're in a relegation fight, when we're not.

 

[windymiller]

There's a line though when that becomes counter productive.

The sooner we shift narrative from relegation, the better as we head into a summer when we have to attract a lot of players to join.

This is my long term worry about Moyes. He's always been a manager of expectations as much as a manager of a football team. He's been brilliant so far, I admit I was overly pessimistic when he arrived, but next season I hope he makes clear that his expectations are beyond just surviving.

 

[CielosGrises]

I can't recall a time under Dyche when I didn't think relegation was a threat. Even last season, it was late April.

It's not a threat now thanks to a tremendous run of results, and the bottom 3 being on track to be the worst bottom 3 since the Prem began, so why keep talking about it? Some fans are a bit like Hiroo Onoda.

Benitez, Lampard an Dyche were symptoms of Everton - they shouldn't be the benchmark.

Let's not go all "be careful what we wish for" over ownership either. I'd rather we got some confidence/arrogance/entitlement from this summer, than continue to worry about relegation.

Otherwise, what's the point?

Honestly I'd be very surprised if he goes back to that next season - I don't think that is what he wants either.

But if the owners go all Kewright in summer then I can't see that much has changed from the playing side from Moyes first stint.

Let's hope we beef it up.

 

[Tony’s Carp]

Sometimes that's the case, but like in the TNT link I gave - it was unprompted an he shoehorned about he didn't want to be the manager to relegate Everton - as he'd done in other interviews.



The point is a relatively simple one.

Everton have an image problem. A perception problem.

Everton need to attract a good amount of players this summer.

Everton, under new owners and heading into a world class stadium have a real opportunity to banish the mentality around the club, and external perception of Everton after years of Allardyce, Benitez, Lampard, Dyche.

Any association with relegation is a negative one, as is any 40 point line. We need to become almost embarrassed or annoyed to be association with relegation - as Spurs/Postecoglou have been this week.

Yeah, we've been circling the drain but that was a short nightmare spell. It wasn't the norm.

With that in mind, the narrative HAS to change and the sooner the club stop talking about relegation, the better.

Agreed, but any discussion from Moyes about relegation applies only for this season and I think it’s clear that when he came in that what his frame of reference for this season.

But you are isolating those words and saying that’s all he thinks we should be. On the future he’s been much more positive and ambitious, he’s said he wants elite players for an elite stadium, that he wants Everton to be challenging with the top clubs, that being a Brentford is nowhere near enough, that we should be talking ourselves up rather than bringing players down to earth after a few wins.

All he’s said about relegation is that in order to get to that future the first step is to avoid relegation this season. That’s obviously true.

 

[Rita_Poon]

Sometimes that's the case, but like in the TNT link I gave - it was unprompted an he shoehorned about he didn't want to be the manager to relegate Everton - as he'd done in other interviews.

Most people required of answers will throw a bit of waffle in, it's part of buying a bit of thinking time and closing down or cutting off follow up questions that you don't fancy answering.

The point is a relatively simple one.

Everton have an image problem. A perception problem.

Everton need to attract a good amount of players this summer.

Everton, under new owners and heading into a world class stadium have a real opportunity to banish the mentality around the club, and external perception of Everton after years of Allardyce, Benitez, Lampard, Dyche.

Any association with relegation is a negative one, as is any 40 point line. We need to become almost embarrassed or annoyed to be association with relegation - as Spurs/Postecoglou have been this week.

Yeah, we've been circling the drain but that was a short nightmare spell. It wasn't the norm.

With that in mind, the narrative HAS to change and the sooner the club stop talking about relegation, the better.

I'm not sure it's entirely even handed to call Everton out as having an image and or perception problem, if I was in the mix for a move I'd be planting stories and winding up agents about a big wages move for myself to man utd. Players and especially agents are only out for one thing, cold hard cash - regardless of from who and how it's paid.

You cite fat sam, fat Rafael, fat frank and gravelly sean. Why not Walter, Howard, walker and the only manager I recall banning the media from the training ground Royle?
Villa were relegated 2015-16, they're in the CL final stages this season. You're only as good as your last game.

League finishing place (etc)...
This season tbc - Moyes/Dyche
15th ----------Dyche
17th ----------Dyche/Lampard
16 ------------benitez/Ferguson/Lampard
10 ------------Ancelotti
12 ------------Ancelotti/Ferguson/Silva
8 -------------Silva
8 -------------allardye/Unsworth/koeman
7 -------------koeman
11 ------------Unsworth/martinez
11 ------------martinez
5 -------------martinez
6 -------------Moyes
7
7
8 2009/10
5
5
6
11
4 2004/05
17
7 --------------Moyes ^^
15 ------------Moyes/Smith
16 ------------Smith
13 1999/00 --Smith
14 ------------Smith
17 ------------Kendall
15 ------------Royle/Watson
6 -------------Royle
15 ------------Royle/Walker
17-------------Gabriel/Kendall/Walker
13 1992/93 --Kendall

32 full seasons, into our 33rd. 14 top half finishes. 4 top quarter finishes. 6 bottom quarter finishes. Those bottom quarter finishes means alongside 3 relegated teams.

There's so many metrics to involve, net spend, best players sold, boardroom upheaval, Europe games, injuries, manager fall outs.

For completions sake... place 6 to place 15... = 22 times. (glad my maths equates here).

We can want a change of philosophy, we can want to alter the perceptions, but that's built on the pitch and delivered by performances and results.
The table never lies (except the west ham illegal players fiasco) (and the Sheffield United phantom goal fiasco).

 

[Rita_Poon]

Most people required of answers will throw a bit of waffle in, it's part of buying a bit of thinking time and closing down or cutting off follow up questions that you don't fancy answering.


I'm not sure it's entirely even handed to call Everton out as having an image and or perception problem, if I was in the mix for a move I'd be planting stories and winding up agents about a big wages move for myself to man utd. Players and especially agents are only out for one thing, cold hard cash - regardless of from who and how it's paid.

You cite fat sam, fat Rafael, fat frank and gravelly sean. Why not Walter, Howard, walker and the only manager I recall banning the media from the training ground Royle?
Villa were relegated 2015-16, they're in the CL final stages this season. You're only as good as your last game.

League finishing place (etc)...
This season tbc - Moyes/Dyche
15th ----------Dyche
17th ----------Dyche/Lampard
16 ------------benitez/Ferguson/Lampard
10 ------------Ancelotti
12 ------------Ancelotti/Ferguson/Silva
8 -------------Silva
8 -------------allardye/Unsworth/koeman
7 -------------koeman
11 ------------Unsworth/martinez
11 ------------martinez
5 -------------martinez
6 -------------Moyes
7
7
8 2009/10
5
5
6
11
4 2004/05
17
7 --------------Moyes ^^
15 ------------Moyes/Smith
16 ------------Smith
13 1999/00 --Smith
14 ------------Smith
17 ------------Kendall
15 ------------Royle/Watson
6 -------------Royle
15 ------------Royle/Walker
17-------------Gabriel/Kendall/Walker
13 1992/93 --Kendall

32 full seasons, into our 33rd. 14 top half finishes. 4 top quarter finishes.

6 bottom quarter finishes.

Moyes delivered 3 of the four and 1 of the six.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Agreed, but any discussion from Moyes about relegation applies only for this season and I think it’s clear that when he came in that what his frame of reference for this season.

But you are isolating those words and saying that’s all he thinks we should be. On the future he’s been much more positive and ambitious, he’s said he wants elite players for an elite stadium, that he wants Everton to be challenging with the top clubs, that being a Brentford is nowhere near enough, that we should be talking ourselves up rather than bringing players down to earth after a few wins.

All he’s said about relegation is that in order to get to that future the first step is to avoid relegation this season. That’s obviously true.

This is a thread about relegation, and it was in response to conversation around the matter.

Yeah he's said some good stuff, but isn't that mitigated when you're also talking up relegation?

Are those elite players for an elite stadium going to be keen to sign for a manager/club, whose own manager said the other day he won't go to the new stadium until we're safe?

Most people required of answers will throw a bit of waffle in, it's part of buying a bit of thinking time and closing down or cutting off follow up questions that you don't fancy answering.


I'm not sure it's entirely even handed to call Everton out as having an image and or perception problem,

We definitely do mate.

And a big one.

We have no marks like Jaden Philogene legging us twice.

 

[Rita_Poon]

This is a thread about relegation, and it was in response to conversation around the matter.

Yeah he's said some good stuff, but isn't that mitigated when you're also talking up relegation?

Are those elite players for an elite stadium going to be keen to sign for a manager/club, whose own manager said the other day he won't go to the new stadium until we're safe?



We definitely do mate.

And a big one.

We have no marks like Jaden Philogene legging us twice.

~ If I fail to keep Everton in the division, I do not deserve to lead the club into it's new river side home!

I see no issue here besides his dedication to the job at hand.



As for players that don't fancy it (or rather the manager at hand...) there's plenty more fish in the sea. I'll have Cahill turn up a thousand times over before some of his more expensive alternatives...

 

[brieverton]

I get what you're saying.

I've shared before that we have a squad, including players on loan that we didn't pay for, 19th in terms of valuation/player fees. Only Ipswich have a squad of players, worth less than us.

We have the likes of Bournemouth fielding 2/3 players who cost more than our entire match day squad.

We're poor.

My expectation was 12th-17th. If I had the chance in the summer, I'd have skipped this season and finished 17th - it was always just about staying up for me and getting to the summer under new owners, to Bramley Moore as a Premier League team.

Now we're getting there, we need to shift that mentality though - I think the problem we're going to have is shifting mentality away from doom and gloom.

The manager has to lead in that - and it starts with not believing we're in a relegation fight, when we're not.

Moyes has mentioned on several occasions the need to rebuild and be a "big" club again. He is being over-cautious in talking about our current status and wanting to ensure safety but there is an element of that in trying to keep the current run going and not allow complacency.

The proof will be the squad of players we have at the end of August. If I was manager I would keep my powder dry till then and say nothing at all.

Even then I don't think Moyes will ever sound especially ambitious beyond generic and vague musings about being a big club again. I wouldn't blame him to a degree.

It's what they do as a collective and not what they say which is fine by me. I don't think Moyes is the manager to get us flying really high but he is a good guy to do a rebuild and have us on the pathway to upward stability.

 

[DL100]

This is my long term worry about Moyes. He's always been a manager of expectations as much as a manager of a football team. He's been brilliant so far, I admit I was overly pessimistic when he arrived, but next season I hope he makes clear that his expectations are beyond just surviving.

Hasn't he already done this

 

[Lanolin]

Agreed, but any discussion from Moyes about relegation applies only for this season and I think it’s clear that when he came in that what his frame of reference for this season.

But you are isolating those words and saying that’s all he thinks we should be. On the future he’s been much more positive and ambitious, he’s said he wants elite players for an elite stadium, that he wants Everton to be challenging with the top clubs, that being a Brentford is nowhere near enough, that we should be talking ourselves up rather than bringing players down to earth after a few wins.

All he’s said about relegation is that in order to get to that future the first step is to avoid relegation this season. That’s obviously true.

I'm not sure that's right. What he's saying is clearly designed to big himself up. I don't say that to criticise him - I said earlier it's standard underpromise/overdeliver stuff and just sensible in a way - but he's not just being cautious so as not to sound cocky, he's deliberately downplaying what can be expected so that he is judged more kindly.

If you look after the United game for example, he said 'it shows how far we've come that we're disappointed with the result'. I mean, that's just not really true is it? We were at home to a team below us in the table and were 2-0 up with 18 minutes to play, we would always have been disappointed with a draw, but he chose to push the 'well a draw's better than you would have got a month ago' line just to point out that it's not actually his fault that we didn't win. Again, I have absolutely no issue with it at the moment and it's totally normal, literally all managers do it, but it's interesting to see the entirely different reactions to the same sort of comments from somebody people like as opposed to somebody they don't.

 

[Ring master]

Who do people think has been the best team to come up from the championship over the years. IE Burnley, Luton, Leicester, Leeds, Ipswich etc. Some have put up a decent fight to stay up, Others havent

 

[GrandOldTeam]

~ If I fail to keep Everton in the division, I do not deserve to lead the club into it's new river side home!

I see no issue here besides his dedication to the job at hand.



As for players that don't fancy it (or rather the manager at hand...) there's plenty more fish in the sea. I'll have Cahill turn up a thousand times over before some of his more expensive alternatives...

No, it wasn't that. I think you, like I missed it;

Moyes has said he will not visit the new stadium till we are guaranteed to stay up.

It's here, prior Man Utd I was referring to;

 

[canuckblue]

No one wants a "Here's what you could have won" moment. And you know what? I don't blame him. I suspect he'll be getting his first look at our new home very shortly.

 

[micknick]

I get what you're saying.

I've shared before that we have a squad, including players on loan that we didn't pay for, 19th in terms of valuation/player fees. Only Ipswich have a squad of players, worth less than us.

We have the likes of Bournemouth fielding 2/3 players who cost more than our entire match day squad.

We're poor.

My expectation was 12th-17th. If I had the chance in the summer, I'd have skipped this season and finished 17th - it was always just about staying up for me and getting to the summer under new owners, to Bramley Moore as a Premier League team.

Now we're getting there, we need to shift that mentality though - I think the problem we're going to have is shifting mentality away from doom and gloom.

The manager has to lead in that - and it starts with not believing we're in a relegation fight, when we're not.

Get what you’re saying, think one more win may change his tone.

His comment about Brentford and how we should be challenging the top teams in the future is what we want more of.

When he said about not wanting to bring the players down as the media and the situation has done enough of that in recent years was great too.