The Now-Irrelevant 2024/25 Relegation Battle (Without Everton!)

[GrandOldTeam]

Said it in his presser the other day after first test event.When asked what he thought he said something like..........I told you before I will not go untill we are guaranteed being a Prem club next season.

Ah. So there will be a puff piece then with quotes about now I know we're safe and I'll be managing here...

If Moyes say he will finish top half, then he doesn’t, for any reason, even if he’s not given the funds he was promised, he will snipe at him for that.

Moyes can’t win whatever he does to some people.

Absolute nonsense.

My point of contention for 20+ years with Moyes has always been how he downplays expectation at every turn.

We're not in contention of relegation, and haven't been since Crystal Palace. Opta have us at 0%.

We need a complete reset from 40 points first culture. This summer allows that opportunity for the first time in years. Let's not hold on to "oh god, let's just stay up".

 

[Tony’s Carp]

When we're talking perception - as we are - what he tells the media is what really matters.

So the question is - you keep saying it's sensible to keep banging on about relegation - so when is it sensible to stop worrying and talking about relegation?

I get what you're saying but in his defence he's banging on about relegation because at every presser and after every game he's asked "is that you safe from relegation now?".

When he came in I think we'd all agree his entire goal was to deliver PL football to BMD, and he said so himself. So now having set that frame of reference he's going to get asked if he has now achieved that goal, and I don't think "no, not yet" is an unreasonable response when mathematically we haven't. If he responded with "yup, job done" while we are on 31 points, that would be more surprising surely?

What does concern me is if what he said is true that all contract talks etc are on hold pending mathematical safety - I'm fine with guarding against complacency in public but in private business should now be proceeding on the basis we remain a PL club. But again that might just be talk.

 

[Simon Buttle]

I get what you're saying but in his defence he's banging on about relegation because at every presser and after every game he's asked "is that you safe from relegation now?".

When he came in I think we'd all agree his entire goal was to deliver PL football to BMD, and he said so himself. So now having set that frame of reference he's going to get asked if he has now achieved that goal, and I don't think "no, not yet" is an unreasonable response when mathematically we haven't. If he responded with "yup, job done" while we are on 31 points, that would be more surprising surely?

What does concern me is if what he said is true that all contract talks etc are on hold pending mathematical safety - I'm fine with guarding against complacency in public but in private business should now be proceeding on the basis we remain a PL club. But again that might just be talk.

Id hope it is, we seem to be leaving far, far too much to do in the summer both on and off the pitch imo.

 

[steven]

Ah. So there will be a puff piece then with quotes about now I know we're safe and I'll be managing here...



Absolute nonsense.

My point of contention with Moyes has always been how he downplays expectation at every turn.

We need a complete reset from 40 points first culture. This summer allows that opportunity.

I get what you’re saying to a point here - as a supporter I’ve felt perennially stuck into ‘surviving by hook or by crook’ mode over the last 5/6 years. I’m sure I’m not the only one that feels drained by it and almost forgotten what it’s like to have ambition - even this latest tenure when we have won more than I recall in a long time I keep expecting [Poor language removed] to hit the fan - go on a record breaking losing streak and the bottom 3 to suddenly become world beaters.

In truth though - I think Moyes has to shift the narrative now, this is our big chance to became contenders for Europe again in the short term, big summer where players need to be sold that dream and fans need to think the manager believes it.

In fairness to Moyes, whilst he is prone to negative mindset think he answered that question re ‘the manager to take Everton down’ from the perspective of when he arrived…it’s easy to forget but it felt like we were in for another hellacious dogfight then. 13/14 points ahead later it all feels silly.

And I liked his answer to ‘does he want Everton to end up like Brentford’ with ‘no offence to Brentford but we have bigger ambitions for Everton than that’

 

[Exeter_Gently]

Ah. So there will be a puff piece then with quotes about now I know we're safe and I'll be managing here...



Absolute nonsense.

My point of contention with Moyes has always been how he downplays expectation at every turn.

We need a complete reset from 40 points first culture. This summer allows that opportunity.

We're still fresh into his appointment so i think for now the cautious approach is fine.

i think if pre season ramps up in the summer and he's still playing things down,I'll doff my cap to you but for this moment in time it's all about taking it game by game and enjoying the rest of the season.

 

[DanB90]

He has, and it's my biggest bugbear with him, how he downplays expectations at every turn - he's done it everywhere he's been. There's a time and a place for it - we've had that reality for the last few years out of necessity, but it's the last thing we need from this summer. New owners. New stadium. We get one big shot to really send a bolt of energy through the club this summer - a real opportunity to kick on, let's not temper it for self PR.

Do we want to start a next season with the manager saying something like "Remember, we've been in a relegation fight for years, lets get to 40 points..."



There shouldn't be any narrative to control regarding relegation now. We're not going to get relegated;



Perception is important - we need to try and shift it away from perennial relegation scrap perception ASAP. Allardyce, Benitez, Dyche, scenes of Lampard celebrating staying up like we'd just won a title. The new stadium and spending this summer would go some way to getting us back to where we should be. A manager telling TV cameras vs Man Utd that he doesn't want to be the manager who relegated Everton isn't the best.

Whilst I agree we need to be looking ahead with optimism, I’d rather this kind of expectation management, than them to come in with the “nothing will be the same!” Mantra. Only for us to be walking around with out tails between our legs a couple of years later.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

I get what you're saying but in his defence he's banging on about relegation because at every presser and after every game he's asked "is that you safe from relegation now?".

Sometimes that's the case, but like in the TNT link I gave - it was unprompted an he shoehorned about he didn't want to be the manager to relegate Everton - as he'd done in other interviews.

When he came in I think we'd all agree his entire goal was to deliver PL football to BMD, and he said so himself. So now having set that frame of reference he's going to get asked if he has now achieved that goal, and I don't think "no, not yet" is an unreasonable response when mathematically we haven't. If he responded with "yup, job done" while we are on 31 points, that would be more surprising surely?

What does concern me is if what he said is true that all contract talks etc are on hold pending mathematical safety - I'm fine with guarding against complacency in public but in private business should now be proceeding on the basis we remain a PL club. But again that might just be talk.

The point is a relatively simple one.

Everton have an image problem. A perception problem.

Everton need to attract a good amount of players this summer.

Everton, under new owners and heading into a world class stadium have a real opportunity to banish the mentality around the club, and external perception of Everton after years of Allardyce, Benitez, Lampard, Dyche.

Any association with relegation is a negative one, as is any 40 point line. We need to become almost embarrassed or annoyed to be association with relegation - as Spurs/Postecoglou have been this week.

Yeah, we've been circling the drain but that was a short nightmare spell. It wasn't the norm.

With that in mind, the narrative HAS to change and the sooner the club stop talking about relegation, the better.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Whilst I agree we need to be looking ahead with optimism, I’d rather this kind of expectation management, than them to come in with the “nothing will be the same!” Mantra. Only for us to be walking around with out tails between our legs a couple of years later.

It's not about saying we're going for the title mate.

But the club would do well to treat the word relegation like a dirty word.

For the first time since Ancelotti, we have genuine cause for optimism. Let's make sure the whole footballing world can see that.

"well, lets get to 40 points" and "im not going to the new stadium until I know we're safe".... c'mon, let's pack that in. Who does that benefit? We're not going down.

 

[CielosGrises]

Ah. So there will be a puff piece then with quotes about now I know we're safe and I'll be managing here...



Absolute nonsense.

My point of contention for 20+ years with Moyes has always been how he downplays expectation at every turn.

We're not in contention of relegation, and haven't been since Crystal Palace.

We need a complete reset from 40 points first culture. This summer allows that opportunity for the first time in years. Let's not hold on to "oh god, let's just stay up".

Isn't / wasn't that more in the hands of the owners though ?

If Moyes was bad then Dyche was even worse at setting expectations low for his own comfort.

When Moshiri started throwing money around, it (righty, i guess) raised expectations beyond the Moyes years and set us into a spiral of entitlemet and possibly delusion (ambition, ambition is all that matters ! I remember the posts well) - maybe it would have worked out but PSR means you have to grow the club i some way which takes time.

If Moyes gets the cash and transfers, he should be thinking Europe - but even then, the entitlement and expectation of instant success is a bit off why should we do any better than (e.g.) Brighton given our years of underinvestment (in the squad) ?.

 

[Armaghtoffee]

Palace doing pretty well - good result at their place that was.

I'm daring to dream of a higher finish but we have some tough teams to overtake.

Would everyone still be happy with just avoiding the drop now ?

Mission accomplished and the re-set button is pressed in the summer. We’re in a good spot now.

 

[CielosGrises]

It's not about saying we're going for the title mate.

But the club would do well to treat the word relegation like a dirty word.

For the first time since Ancelotti, we have genuine cause for optimism. Let's make sure the whole footballing world can see that.

"well, lets get to 40 points" and "im not going to the new stadium until I know we're safe".... c'mon, let's pack that in. Who does that benefit? We're not going down.

I'm sure that one is a tongue i cheek superstition - 40 points would also be fine this season.

 

[superkeeper]

It's hard to say now isn't it? Think many thought Southampton and Leicester would be much tougher relegation rivals. We're in for a 2nd year running for the promotes teams going straight back down. Honestly, no matter how good Leeds look, I just don't fancy anyone promoted side to stay up.

Hope that changes like, no good for the competition if it just becomes a closed shop. Or the only way a team goes down is because of a points deduction or something.

It’s not great for the Championship either. Of the top 3 at the moment, Burnley and Sheffield United came down last season and Leeds the season before, yet there’s a huge gap between them and the other teams in the play offs, Sunderland aside.

The last couple of seasons, it feels that there’s been more yo-yoing between Premier League and the Championship from a handful of clubs.

 

[whiteshadow]

Ah. So there will be a puff piece then with quotes about now I know we're safe and I'll be managing here...



Absolute nonsense.

My point of contention for 20+ years with Moyes has always been how he downplays expectation at every turn.

We're not in contention of relegation, and haven't been since Crystal Palace. Opta have us at 0%.

We need a complete reset from 40 points first culture. This summer allows that opportunity for the first time in years. Let's not hold on to "oh god, let's just stay up".

That’s fair enough.

I do feel some people are unrealistic with their expectations as opposed to wanting positivity.

Already had one person say they felt he should have done better the team he had originally (subjective opinion) while claiming the lack of funds he had is irrelevant, despite that being an objective truth.

No neutral fans would expect a team being outspent heavily to compete with them. Yet that is often pushed as an argument by the anti Moyes people.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Isn't / wasn't that more in the hands of the owners though ?

If Moyes was bad then Dyche was even worse at setting expectations low for his own comfort.

When Moshiri started throwing money around, it (righty, i guess) raised expectations beyond the Moyes years and set us into a spiral of entitlemet and possibly delusion (ambition, ambition is all that matters ! I remember the posts well) - maybe it would have worked out but PSR means you have to grow the club i some way which takes time.

If Moyes gets the cash and transfers, he should be thinking Europe - but even then, the entitlement and expectation of instant success is a bit off why should we do any better than (e.g.) Brighton given our years of underinvestment ?.

I can't recall a time under Dyche when I didn't think relegation was a threat. Even last season, it was late April.

It's not a threat now thanks to a tremendous run of results, and the bottom 3 being on track to be the worst bottom 3 since the Prem began, so why keep talking about it? Some fans are a bit like Hiroo Onoda.

Benitez, Lampard an Dyche were symptoms of Everton - they shouldn't be the benchmark.

Let's not go all "be careful what we wish for" over ownership either. I'd rather we got some confidence/arrogance/entitlement from this summer, than continue to worry about relegation.

Otherwise, what's the point?

 

[Amokachi1995]

Not sure what you're referring to, but he made the point of not wanting to be the manager to relegate Everton to multiple media outlets prior Man Utd. Example below wasn't in any response to Brentford;

Moyes: 'I didn't want to be the manager who took Everton down'

David Moyes has admitted he felt some trepidation about the prospect of relegation from the Premier League after his return to Goodison Park to manage Everton.

www.tntsports.co.uk

In my view, he just needs to shift perception away from relegation now. We should be a totally different outfit from this summer - so lets start working towards that. Talking about relegation would only be self serving.

I do get your point. I can live with the comments short term but ultimately we need to be changing the emphasis.

The Brentford quote is bottom bullet on the attached. From the BBC.