"the manager has only a 15% influence on where a team finish in the league"

[steken1]

Not sure how you come to that conclusion given the known factors re Wigan ie the massive wage bill cuts and selling of players to achieve said cuts not to mention they simply are not a top flight club. Given his efforts in keeping them up for a few seasons and eventually winning the FA cup arguably he DID do it in relative terms.

Notably Clough of the giants I mention eventually fell over at Forest and he never managed the trick at Brighton some base level circumstance has to be there a certain size and potential of the club so a Villa, Newcastle, Sunderland, Spurs and of course us could do it - Wigan/Blackpool/Charlton/Reading/QPR etc. simply could never happen.

I think he'd need to be as good as Clough to do it here.

Even then a remarkable run of luck might need to come our way.

 

[Jamo Martinez]

Does the stat mean that the maximum a manager can improve a team is 15%. Or does it mean that the manager's influence is set at 15% which could be positive or negative influence. Or even a combination

 

[Allezfan]

Not sure how you come to that conclusion given the known factors re Wigan ie the massive wage bill cuts and selling of players to achieve said cuts not to mention they simply are not a top flight club. Given his efforts in keeping them up for a few seasons and eventually winning the FA cup arguably he DID do it in relative terms.

Notably Clough of the giants I mention eventually fell over at Forest and he never managed the trick at Brighton some base level circumstance has to be there a certain size and potential of the club so a Villa, Newcastle, Sunderland, Spurs and of course us could do it - Wigan/Blackpool/Charlton/Reading/QPR etc. simply could never happen.

By massive wage bill cuts you mean 2 million, right?

He inherited a team paying 40 million in wages and left a team paying 38. They were always at least 3 premier league teams paying lower wages than them in every season but Martinez's last.

I'm not arguing that he didn't do a good job keeping them up or that winning the cup wasn't the most impressive thing anyone has done in the english game since the 1980s.

But ultimately he was competing against teams with a budget of about 1 and a half times bigger than his own team and found that financial gap too steep in the end. To win the league here, he'd have to compete against teams with a budget 5 or 6 times bigger than ours. If he could do that, in a league situation, he'd have taken wigan into the top half.

Now he's still young and can improve, he's inherited a much better team, Everton are much more attractive a club in terms of attracting players and we don't sell players as rapidly as Wigan so he has more time to work with his team rather than pull apart and rebuild every summer.

I think he's capable of getting us into europe and if he can win a cup with Wigan he can certainly win a few here. But I won't ask him to do something I feel is impossible, that's unfair on him. Ultimately if finances didn't matter, wigan would still be a premier league team.

Having you said that, you saw something in Martinez prior to his FA cup win when I was still dismissing him as a loser, so maybe you're right to see this as well, I dunno.

 

[steken1]

By massive wage bill cuts you mean 2 million, right?

He inherited a team paying 40 million in wages and left a team paying 38. They were always at least 3 premier league teams paying lower wages than them in every season but Martinez's last.

I'm not arguing that he didn't do a good job keeping them up or that winning the cup wasn't the most impressive thing anyone has done in the english game since the 1980s.

But ultimately he was competing against teams with a budget of about 1 and a half times bigger than his own team and found that financial gap too steep in the end. To win the league here, he'd have to compete against teams with a budget 5 or 6 times bigger than ours. If he could do that, in a league situation, he'd have taken wigan into the top half.

Now he's still young and can improve, he's inherited a much better team, Everton are much more attractive a club in terms of attracting players and we don't sell players as rapidly as Wigan so he has more time to work with his team rather than pull apart and rebuild every summer.

I think he's capable of getting us into europe and if he can win a cup with Wigan he can certainly win a few here. But I won't ask him to do something I feel is impossible, that's unfair on him. Ultimately if finances didn't matter, wigan would still be a premier league team.

Having you said that, you saw something in Martinez prior to his FA cup win when I was still dismissing him as a loser, so maybe you're right to see this as well, I dunno.

While I don't disagree, mostly because I can't, the wage bill doesn't tell the whole story. It must be a nightmare getting players to go to a club like Wigan. Crap fans, crap rugby town, play on a bog and the chairmans always in the changies telling you stories about his leg.

They must have to pay well over the odds to get average players there. What I'm saying is that being Wigan probably means they get less value for money.

 

[Coach]

If a team had no manager for a whole season then they would be a lot worse off than 15%. It is utter rubbish to say that the manager only influences 15%.

 

[Allezfan]

While I don't disagree, mostly because I can't, the wage bill doesn't tell the whole story. It must be a nightmare getting players to go to a club like Wigan. Crap fans, crap rugby town, play on a bog and the chairmans always in the changies telling you stories about his leg.

They must have to pay well over the odds to get average players there. What I'm saying is that being Wigan probably means they get less value for money.

I kind of agree, but I think we're kind of overestimating players.

Look how many go to zenit. Any team playing in the premier league, with all the exposure that implies, is going to attract players from south america or the scottish league etc even if it's a craphole like wigan.

I mean Valencia and Palacios got big transfers out of that spotlight, that's your carrot.

Also, it's worth noting that while Wigan's wage bill last year was the second lowest in the league that's still more than Celtic or Ajax or most of the big non english clubs are paying. The prem is much a money mine that even crap teams are attractive. We spend more than dortmund or benfica for instance.

 

[Allezfan]

If a team had no manager for a whole season then they would be a lot worse off than 15%. It is utter rubbish to say that the manager only influences 15%.

Sure, but the argument is that within the premier league where every team has one of the top 20 managers in the country, the influence that manager has over league position is 15%. Obviously if you had one manager employed and 19 clubs with no manager his influence would be more. But that's not the case.

 

[steken1]

I kind of agree, but I think we're kind of overestimating players.

Look how many go to zenit. Any team playing in the premier league, with all the exposure that implies, is going to attract players from south america or the scottish league etc even if it's a craphole like wigan.

I mean Valencia and Palacios got big transfers out of that spotlight, that's your carrot.

Also, it's worth noting that while Wigan's wage bill last year was the second lowest in the league that's still more than Celtic or Ajax or most of the big non english clubs are playing. The prem is much a money mine that even crap teams are attractive. We spend more than dortmund or benfica for instance.

I agree. But, I may be wrong, I'd imagine when wigan come in for a player and A.N.other side go in the only hope Wigan have got is to pay silly dosh or look for an alternative who isn't your first choice.

Similar in that Anzhi, Zenit etc pay brewsters for a squad no better than ours, probably.

 

[Coach]

Sure, but the argument is that within the premier league where every team has one of the top 20 managers in the country, the influence that manager has over league position is 15%. Obviously if you had one manager employed and 19 clubs with no manager his influence would be more. But that's not the case.

Yeah I get what the arguement is thanks - it was in the OP. It is a rubbish arguement.