"the manager has only a 15% influence on where a team finish in the league"

[Allezfan]

Interesting read.

However sky money in 92 massively distorted things.

As is the foreign tv money now.

Yup.

It's why I think the manager isn't the defining feature in terms of where you finish, anymore when maybe 20 years ago it was.

That's finances.

Manager would be 2nd.

 

[lmurkder]

To be fair, there is no manager in the current game who even comes close to Clough in terms of overachievment compared to finances.

In his prime, he probably could win us a league, here. Of course he'd also be offered four times the money to go somewhere else.

Didn't Clough pay the first million pound transfer fee?

Trevor Francis?

 

[Allezfan]

Didn't Clough pay the first million pound transfer fee?

Trevor Francis?

Giuseppe Savoldi, years earlier.

 

[lmurkder]

Yup.

It's why I think the manager isn't the defining feature in terms of where you finish, anymore when maybe 20 years ago it was.

That's finances.

Manager would be 2nd.

The cluster of clubs wanting to establish a European super league

Who held uefa to ransom over it to get more money.

They killed football. To a certain extent.

Haves and have nots.

 

[lmurkder]

Giuseppe Savoldi, years earlier.

English football.

 

[Brownie]

It's why people started using words like philosophy and identity. Something that is ingrained in the club that never changes, to the extent that it influences how the team plays on the pitch. These days it's more important than ever because of the quick turnover of managers. Having a way of playing that persists over time protects you against the variance of managers and thus players; it's a foundation that ensures the stability and success of the club.

 

[Allezfan]

English football.

Kind of. Clough always claimed it was 990,000 so francis wouldn't have that burden on him.

None the less they spent two years as the best team in europe and they weren't anywhere near that in terms of finances compared to what the spanish and italians were spending. Hell of an achievement.

 

[nigelcoyb]

You can count on the fingers of one hand historically managers who really defied the odds - Herbert Chapman being the first then Shanks, Busby and Clough. The results of finding such men speak for themselves with Arsenal, Liverpool and Utd the 3 most trophied clubs in the country being the legacy of the first 3 names.

Despite the abomination that is the Prem monied cartel someone will eventually come along to rewrite the records - his name is Roberto Martinez.

 

[Allezfan]

You can count on the fingers of one hand historically managers who really defied the odds - Herbert Chapman being the first then Shanks, Busby and Clough. The results of finding such men speak for themselves with Arsenal, Liverpool and Utd the 3 most trophied clubs in the country being the legacy of the first 3 names.

Despite the abomination that is the Prem monied cartel someone will eventually come along to rewrite the records - his name is Roberto Martinez.

I like Martinez and I have high hopes he'll be an excellent manager here and win us a cup or two and get us into europe.

But ask for any more then that of him and he'll disappoint you. It's just not possible and it's unfair to demand it.

If he could defeat the kind of odds we're talking about he'd have done it with Wigan.

 

[Tubey]

That corner stat is utter balls. Yes, it's probably true in relation to direct goals from the initial cross, but sending the ball into box generates attacking momentum and a positional advantage overall as the opposition come out from the initial clearance to attempt to take defensive shape.

 

[Allezfan]

That corner stat is utter balls. Yes, it's probably true in relation to direct goals from the initial cross, but sending the ball into box generates attacking momentum and a positional advantage overall as the opposition come out from the initial clearance to attempt to take defensive shape.

Yeah but you only win a corner while high up the pitch anyhow. You already have a positional advantage.

Winning a corner itself is only really useful in that it allows you to keep posession if you're in danger of losing it. The extra bodies you can bring up are cancelled out by the extra bodies they can bring back. Once you've reached the by line, putting a cross in or winning a corner are about equal in terms of results. Both desirable, both only likely to lead to a goal relatively rarely.

 

[Tubey]

Yeah but you only win a corner while high up the pitch anyhow. You already have a positional advantage.

Winning a corner itself is only really useful in that it allows you to keep posession if you're in danger of losing it. The extra bodies you can bring up are cancelled out by the extra bodies they can bring back. Once you've reached the by line, putting a cross in or winning a corner are about equal in terms of results. Both desirable, both only likely to lead to a goal relatively rarely.

Doesn't work that way though. The positional advantage is with the attack, end of story. Going by those stats with a literal interpretation you may as well play it short and knock it back to the full back and begin again from the back, which is obviously ludicrous. Even the example you give of it equating to a standard cross - imagine if every winger pulled the ball back from the byline, turned around and laid off for the full back and began play again. It'd defy common sense.

Stats really are utterly useless unless they're taken in context, and the one in the OP completely neglects every other aspect of attacking football.

 

[Allezfan]

Doesn't work that way though. The positional advantage is with the attack, end of story. Going by those stats with a literal interpretation you may as well play it short and knock it back to the full back and begin again from the back, which is obviously ludicrous. Even the example you give of it equating to a standard cross - imagine if every winger pulled the ball back from the byline, turned around and laid off for the full back and began play again. It'd defy common sense.

Stats really are utterly useless unless they're taken in context, and the one in the OP completely neglects every other aspect of attacking football.

I'm not saying corners are useless, I agree with you there.

I'm saying they're about as good as a cross. 9 times out of ten both are dealt with by the defense but it contributes to pressure, keeps their defence honest, and leads to goals every couple of games. That's fair enough.

Ultimately every time you have the ball near their goal that's good. A corner no more or less so than any other way.

 

[Tubey]

I'm not saying corners are useless, I agree with you there.

I'm saying they're about as good as a cross. 9 times out of ten both are dealt with by the defense but it contributes to pressure, keeps their defence honest, and leads to goals every couple of games. That's fair enough.

Ultimately every time you have the ball near their goal that's good. A corner no more or less so than any other way.

Agreed.

We tend to agree but in a profoundly disagreeable way!

 

[nigelcoyb]

I like Martinez and I have high hopes he'll be an excellent manager here and win us a cup or two and get us into europe.

But ask for any more then that of him and he'll disappoint you. It's just not possible and it's unfair to demand it.

If he could defeat the kind of odds we're talking about he'd have done it with Wigan.

Not sure how you come to that conclusion given the known factors re Wigan ie the massive wage bill cuts and selling of players to achieve said cuts not to mention they simply are not a top flight club. Given his efforts in keeping them up for a few seasons and eventually winning the FA cup arguably he DID do it in relative terms.

Notably Clough of the giants I mention eventually fell over at Forest and he never managed the trick at Brighton some base level circumstance has to be there a certain size and potential of the club so a Villa, Newcastle, Sunderland, Spurs and of course us could do it - Wigan/Blackpool/Charlton/Reading/QPR etc. simply could never happen.