Current Affairs The Labour Party

[tsubaki]

Sad that the centrists are still blaming “the hard left” for them failing still.

 

[Eggs]

Sad that the centrists are still blaming “the hard left” for them failing still.

....I think it will take a while for the negative impact of the Corbyn era to be forgotten. I said when Starmer was elected leader that he’d do well to give his successor a chance & I think that remains the case.

Labour is scarred and Johnson is popular. That seems to be the reality.

 

[tsubaki]

....I think it will take a while for the negative impact of the Corbyn era to be forgotten. I said when Starmer was elected leader that he’d do well to give his successor a chance & I think that remains the case.

Labour is scarred and Johnson is popular. That seems to be the reality.

TBF that assumes that the problem here is that it’s “the Corbyn legacy” that is turning people off.

There isn’t that much evidence that’s the case - most of the disconnect seems to be the old “Labour no longer represents me / my interests”, which dates back far longer than Corbyn.

 

[PaulPowersTash]

Exactly this.

That's where Starmer has so far failed. Things like taking the knee with Rayner for a photo op, or going John Lewis for a wallpaper spot 'for the memes'.

Labour can't win by going hard left, because there's no vote there. They can't win by appealing to the minority. It's why I laughed at the idea that Corbyn represents in any way a working class voter in Merseyside; he didn't. The base Labour electorate now are still obviously the poorer in society, but by and large these people are aspirational and don't want hand outs or the destruction of capitalism. They aren't on Twitter celebrating Karl Marx's birthday. Instead they want a plan to get on the property ladder and so on.

It should have been fairly easy for Starmer - all he had to do was appear competent and gut the party of the weirdos that had infested it. Stand for something, have people believe he could lead. He's failed spectacularly in that goal.

Good post.
Spot on when you say there is no appetite for hard left policies regardless of how much they believe there is. Also about normal people being aspirational for themselves and their kids. What the past (and current) Labour leaders have also missed is that the average working class person is far more patrotic than they could ever believe. Instead Labour sneer at patriotism (as do some posters on here) and brand it as 'Little Englanders' & zenophobic bigots which is a huge own goal. Starmer and his recent focus groups have finally realised this, but hanging out a union jack everytime you give a speech doesn't really cut it either. Hence the appeal for the Tories by working class voters. As you say, all they need is some sensible policies put across in a credible manner by a few credible people and they can begin to move forward. Can they do that? On current efforts it doesn't look like it.

 

[Connor]

the centrists

The worst

 

[Mrk]

Maybe the problem isn't with 'the left' and maybe it's not with the 'centrists' either - maybe Labour is just a dying party that had a solid and somewhat admirable cause and purpose in the early-to-mid 20th century, but no longer appeals to enough people in a modern, aspirational and globalised world?

 

[DanEFC92]

Good post.
Spot on when you say there is no appetite for hard left policies regardless of how much they believe there is. Also about normal people being aspirational for themselves and their kids. What the past (and current) Labour leaders have also missed is that the average working class person is far more patrotic than they could ever believe. Instead Labour sneer at patriotism (as do some posters on here) and brand it as 'Little Englanders' & zenophobic bigots which is a huge own goal. Starmer and his recent focus groups have finally realised this, but hanging out a union jack everytime you give a speech doesn't really cut it either. Hence the appeal for the Tories by working class voters. As you say, all they need is some sensible policies put across in a credible manner by a few credible people and they can begin to move forward. Can they do that? On current efforts it doesn't look like it.

What hard left policies?

What do you mean when you say that the labour stunt of having speeches in front of a union flag doesnt cut it - hence the Tories appeal?

 

[Tubey]

Maybe the problem isn't with 'the left' and maybe it's not with the 'centrists' either - maybe Labour is just a dying party that had a solid and somewhat admirable cause and purpose in the early-to-mid 20th century, but no longer appeals to enough people in a modern, aspirational and globalised world?

That's the whole argument though - ideology over pragmatism. If the cause Labour stood for 'traditionally' is dead - and it is - then adapt your thinking and represent people in a new, more relevant way.

The 'new left' is near the centre. The Tories pre-COVID, went very hard right. The COVID spending has brought the perception of them back to the centre, but they are at their core still the Brexit loving loonies they were pre-March 2020. That's where Starmer's chance is as we go forward - take the ground they vacate. Labour's biggest fear should be if Johnson actually does commit to a tangible 'levelling up' agenda, as that is centre-right and would mean Labour are goosed no matter what they do.

 

[peteblue]

And this is why Labour will lose...

Maybe the problem isn't with 'the left' and maybe it's not with the 'centrists' either - maybe Labour is just a dying party that had a solid and somewhat admirable cause and purpose in the early-to-mid 20th century, but no longer appeals to enough people in a modern, aspirational and globalised world?

They will go the way of the Whigs......and New New Labour will be born.....

 

[Charro]

Starmer suspended corbyn from the party, sacked his biggest ally in the shadow cabinet and has done everything he can to distance himself from the Corbyn era.

Yet, Corbyn is still to blame and starmers biggest mistake is not sacking a load of left leaning politicians?

Lord, give me strength.

 

[Mrk]

That's the whole argument though - ideology over pragmatism. If the cause Labour stood for 'traditionally' is dead - and it is - then adapt your thinking and represent people in a new, more relevant way.

The 'new left' is near the centre. The Tories pre-COVID, went very hard right. The COVID spending has brought the perception of them back to the centre, but they are at their core still the Brexit loving loonies they were pre-March 2020. That's where Starmer's chance is as we go forward - take the ground they vacate. Labour's biggest fear should be if Johnson actually does commit to a tangible 'levelling up' agenda, as that is centre-right and would mean Labour are goosed no matter what they do.

But how far can you take a party from its 'roots' before it is no longer that party anymore? If that even makes any sense? (it did in my head).

Labour's biggest issue to me seems to be that it is fundamentally a party built upon ideology - whereas the only ideology the Tories have ever adhered to is winning at all costs. The problem with that is when the ideology that was instrumental to the creation of the party no longer has any relevance, it's difficult to define what the party is anymore - and you're always going to have a sizable minority who will resist any attempts to take the party away from that founding ideology (regardless of its irrelevance).

 

[Tubey]

But how far can you take a party from its 'roots' before it is no longer that party anymore? If that even makes any sense? (it did in my head).

Labour's biggest issue to me seems to be that it is fundamentally a party built upon ideology - whereas the only ideology the Tories have ever adhered to is winning at all costs. The problem with that is when the ideology that was instrumental to the creation of the party no longer has any relevance, it's difficult to define what the party is anymore - and you're always going to have a sizable minority who will resist any attempts to take the party away from that founding ideology (regardless of its irrelevance).

I understand, but if you take Labour as meaning the party of the poor and the working class, then they need to move with the times to properly represent the poor and the working class.

Their voter base aren't working down the mines anymore.

 

[Mrk]

They will go the way of the Whigs......and New New Labour will be born.....

Quite possibly. A lot depends on whether our electoral system stays the same or not - if we ever get some kind of PR Labour will split in about 30 seconds.

 

[Mrk]

I understand, but if you take Labour as meaning the party of the poor and the working class, then they need to move with the times to properly represent the poor and the working class.

Their voter base aren't working down the mines anymore.

That's fair, and it would allow Labour to plant some roots again and build from there. They've got to have something for everyone though - that's the key. There aren't enough votes on the left or right alone to win elections.

 

[Tubey]

That's fair, and it would allow Labour to plant some roots again and build from there. They've got to have something for everyone though - that's the key. There aren't enough votes on the left or right alone to win elections.

Indeed, so the key for Labour is policies that improve the means of the lower and working classes whilst not threatening the middle classes. And that includes not just taxing the rich, because people aren't stupid; they realise that if the rich go elsewhere, the harm hits everyone. It's a balancing act, so the battleground for Labour should be one of competency. That's where Johnson and the Tories are vulnerable, combined with sleaze.

The levelling up agenda is so dangerous, because if the Tories actually did that, it truly would be armageddon for Labour. If they fail and Labour present a realistic, competent program of bringing people up instead of levelling everyone down, they'd have a shot. To do that means the centre ground politically - it simply has to be a broad church approach. Left wing ideology has no place.