Current Affairs The Labour Party

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Why should a majority of any money that your hard work earns be handed over to the government?

I don't see what is so outrageous in that statement?

First of all - I didn't say it's outrageous, I just believe it's wrong.

We need to completely reform our economic system. We need to invest more in a green economy, and fundamentally rebuild our welfare system in a manner that provides comprehensive security for those who depend on it.

To do that, we need to increase tax.

It's fair that, those who have been protected from the results of austerity the most, pay for this.
 
First of all - I didn't say it's outrageous, I just believe it's wrong.

We need to completely reform our economic system. We need to invest more in a green economy, and fundamentally rebuild our welfare system in a manner that provides comprehensive security for those who depend on it.

To do that, we need to increase tax.

It's fair that, those who have been protected from the results of austerity the most, pay for this.

I agree with the principle, but is it realistic?

Ultimately, the '1%' will just stay as rich. They will find ways around it and ultimately they fund the economy, really, so how much can the government really do?

So, the people who really pay are the 50k-80k bracket, surely? They aren't really the ones who have been 'protected' from the results of austerity.

It ultimately comes across as people taxing success. And that's an easy win against Labour straight away.

If you earn money, you should be entitled to keep more than half of a percentage cut. YOU have earned it. Nobody else.

I'm of the belief people should be taxed in proportion to what they earn. I just don't agree with taxes being higher than half.

It would be interesting to see how many of these Labour MPs who would be in that 50-80k bracket would actually be willing to pay the price for the idealistic version of the world.
 
I agree with the principle, but is it realistic?

Ultimately, the '1%' will just stay as rich. They will find ways around it and ultimately they fund the economy, really, so how much can the government really do?

The simple solution to this is to reform the manner in which taxation is administered. I would strongly recommend that you read the Joy of Tax by Richard Murphy if you'd like to find out about radical reform in our system of tax.


So, the people who really pay are the 50k-80k bracket, surely? They aren't really the ones who have been 'protected' from the results of austerity.

Of course they are? It doesn't take a genius to work out that it's the low earners who rely on the state and local services more than the middle classes.

It ultimately comes across as people taxing success. And that's an easy win against Labour straight away.

Labour want to share the success. Free tuition, and a real ecologically-driven industrial strategy are just two policies that'll shift the "successes" from the few - to the many.

If you earn money, you should be entitled to keep more than half of a percentage cut. YOU have earned it. Nobody else.

I don't understand this. Nobody is completely self made. We all benefit from our public infrastructure, and without it - we'd be far less off. It's obvious that we need investment, investment of which will benefit everyone.

It would be interesting to see how many of these Labour MPs who would be in that 50-80k bracket would actually be willing to pay the price for the idealistic version of the world.

Well if people supported the democratic will of Labour members, we'd ensure that all of them would be willing to "pay the price".
 
I agree with the principle, but is it realistic?

Ultimately, the '1%' will just stay as rich. They will find ways around it and ultimately they fund the economy, really, so how much can the government really do?

So, the people who really pay are the 50k-80k bracket, surely? They aren't really the ones who have been 'protected' from the results of austerity.

It ultimately comes across as people taxing success. And that's an easy win against Labour straight away.

If you earn money, you should be entitled to keep more than half of a percentage cut. YOU have earned it. Nobody else.

I'm of the belief people should be taxed in proportion to what they earn. I just don't agree with taxes being higher than half.

It would be interesting to see how many of these Labour MPs who would be in that 50-80k bracket would actually be willing to pay the price for the idealistic version of the world.

Sadly it's not only your income that Labour want to pilfer, as they'll be finding lots of other ways to do so too. It's the general arrogance of socialists that they know so much better how to spend your money than you do. Cuddly Uncle Jezzer can be trusted to look after you, unless he doesn't like you like Tom Watson, when he'll try and knife you in the back. Thankfully the man is too incompetent to ever be prime minister.
 
Sadly it's not only your income that Labour want to pilfer, as they'll be finding lots of other ways to do so too. It's the general arrogance of socialists that they know so much better how to spend your money than you do. Cuddly Uncle Jezzer can be trusted to look after you, unless he doesn't like you like Tom Watson, when he'll try and knife you in the back. Thankfully the man is too incompetent to ever be prime minister.
Corbyn knifing Watson in the back? Crikey.
 
I agree with the principle, but is it realistic?

Ultimately, the '1%' will just stay as rich. They will find ways around it and ultimately they fund the economy, really, so how much can the government really do?

So, the people who really pay are the 50k-80k bracket, surely? They aren't really the ones who have been 'protected' from the results of austerity.

It ultimately comes across as people taxing success. And that's an easy win against Labour straight away.

If you earn money, you should be entitled to keep more than half of a percentage cut. YOU have earned it. Nobody else.

I'm of the belief people should be taxed in proportion to what they earn. I just don't agree with taxes being higher than half.

It would be interesting to see how many of these Labour MPs who would be in that 50-80k bracket would actually be willing to pay the price for the idealistic version of the world.

Need to make sure companies pay the right tax, clamp down on the tax avoidance schemes.
 
Sadly it's not only your income that Labour want to pilfer, as they'll be finding lots of other ways to do so too. It's the general arrogance of socialists that they know so much better how to spend your money than you do. Cuddly Uncle Jezzer can be trusted to look after you, unless he doesn't like you like Tom Watson, when he'll try and knife you in the back. Thankfully the man is too incompetent to ever be prime minister.

With the nicest will in the world mate I think thats a bit unfair. Firstly stealth taxes have increased as much from right wing governments as left wing ones (indeed this government has continued to whack up VAT against Labours wishes).

Secondly it's not about who spends money better. Labour believe that given the huge boom in incomes the top 5% have had as a result of austerity placed upon the majority of the population (who have got poorer) they ought to pay a little bit back in terms of taxation. Again that seems fair enough logic. I can understand why some of the top 5% would be unhappy too, but you can't satisfy everyone.

Finally I do think we have to start tackling the idea that the state cannot spend money as effectively as the private sector. Both have their advantages. I am not a demagogue on either side of that argument, and ultimately I'd like to see both working together. However anyone who has had experience of Southern trains will tell you the level of service provided, is significantly worse than anything I've ever had from a state provider.

There is a philosophical argument here as well. People complain about the commodification of society, town centres shutting down, lack of opportunities, lack of social mobility etc. Yet there is some reluctance at putting this within the context of the above. If the argument about who spends money better is about readily disposable income of the top 5% or a government elected by 100% of the people (or a party elected by say 35-40% of the people) which do you feel has a broader understanding of the most altruistic way to spend that money for the good of society?

Thats not to attack the top 5% either. I include myself in that too. Being objective, the money I have that goes beyond my basics, essentially I waste on vanity projects, clothes, aftershave, holidays, hotels. Thats fine but objectively that money would be better spent on social services, elderly care, more police officers, more teachers, money for the NHS etc.
 
They actually do. For example, support for nationalisation has huge support.Water, electricity, gas, trains. Most people want higher taxation to use on public services.

The two parties have distinctive advantages. Labour's is that it's policies will be a net positive for up to 90% of the population, or at the very worst a net neutral (for those towards the top end of that bracket).
The Conservatives is that the 5%-10% or so that benefit under their governance wield an enormous amount of power, wealth and influence. They fill the majority of the key aspects of the state, be it legal, editors of news outlets, headteachers at schools, MP's, senior members of the civil service etc.

It's why I never really go massively along with the complaints of the press attacking Labour. That will always happen, if your plan as Labour is you will wait until the press stop doing that, you will never win. If all things were equal on that footing, how could the Conservatives ever win? It would be like a roulette wheel, where they had 4 numbers to pick, and Labour have the rest.

It's why the fixation and narrowness of approach from Blair (and most of the MP's who are to a greater or lesser degree in his image) is tactically majorly floored. Yes for a short period they got some support from the media, but at huge cost and it was really a temporary measure until the Conservatives sorted themselves out. There was never any longevity in it. To keep harping back to that moment seems incredibly naive to me.

Labour have to push out the message clearly, that the manifesto will benefit most people. That message kills the Conservatives (or greatly alarms them). Mcdonnell consistently saying only tax rises for the top 5% is very effective. The Conservative will obfuscate and give examples of people in or around the top 5%, living in London with 6 kids who can barely afford child care to gain sympathy, but when it's presented in a numeric form, as in it's the top 5% it crystallises what it means for people.

You are right to characterise the break we are seeing currently as the breakup of neoliberalism as well. I sensed that died when May reversed most of the austerity agenda and started blabbering on about doing more for working people (the same message Blairites tried to ban Labour from talking about). However it does not automatically have to break to the left. The right can capitalise in moments like this.

Famously in Weimar, where inequality then depression hit, people suffered, the inability of the left to come up with a united and clear message then opened the door for the right with tragic consequences. We really do have to be aware that in moments like this. Get this wrong and it may not just be a period of Conservative rule we are looking at.
 
With the nicest will in the world mate I think thats a bit unfair. Firstly stealth taxes have increased as much from right wing governments as left wing ones (indeed this government has continued to whack up VAT against Labours wishes).

Secondly it's not about who spends money better. Labour believe that given the huge boom in incomes the top 5% have had as a result of austerity placed upon the majority of the population (who have got poorer) they ought to pay a little bit back in terms of taxation. Again that seems fair enough logic. I can understand why some of the top 5% would be unhappy too, but you can't satisfy everyone.

Finally I do think we have to start tackling the idea that the state cannot spend money as effectively as the private sector. Both have their advantages. I am not a demagogue on either side of that argument, and ultimately I'd like to see both working together. However anyone who has had experience of Southern trains will tell you the level of service provided, is significantly worse than anything I've ever had from a state provider.

There is a philosophical argument here as well. People complain about the commodification of society, town centres shutting down, lack of opportunities, lack of social mobility etc. Yet there is some reluctance at putting this within the context of the above. If the argument about who spends money better is about readily disposable income of the top 5% or a government elected by 100% of the people (or a party elected by say 35-40% of the people) which do you feel has a broader understanding of the most altruistic way to spend that money for the good of society?

Thats not to attack the top 5% either. I include myself in that too. Being objective, the money I have that goes beyond my basics, essentially I waste on vanity projects, clothes, aftershave, holidays, hotels. Thats fine but objectively that money would be better spent on social services, elderly care, more police officers, more teachers, money for the NHS etc.

It's a fallacy to suggest that they're getting off scott free though, as the richest 5% already pay the vast majority of tax in the UK. The bottom 50% of earners contribute around 10% of the income tax income, with the wealthier half of society already paying as much as they ever did during the Labour years.

In reality though, income tax is a red herring as it's just the most obvious tax. Over 3/4 of government income comes via other taxes, and so Labour going after 'high earners' is just another class war policy in the mould of their privatisation plans for private schools.

As an aside, why don't you spend your current 'vanity' expenditure on those things? No local hospital will ever refuse donations, as I'm sure your local schools wouldn't either. You can contribute as much as you want without requiring Labour to force people to do so. It would be easier to support such a policy if those advocating it walked the walk themselves.
 
The two parties have distinctive advantages. Labour's is that it's policies will be a net positive for up to 90% of the population, or at the very worst a net neutral (for those towards the top end of that bracket).
The Conservatives is that the 5%-10% or so that benefit under their governance wield an enormous amount of power, wealth and influence. They fill the majority of the key aspects of the state, be it legal, editors of news outlets, headteachers at schools, MP's, senior members of the civil service etc.

They 'think' they will be a net positive for the population. That's the crucial difference. There's an overwhelming sense of hubris among Labour thinkers that the only way for a service to be delivered 'humanely' to society is when they're the ones delivering it. Given how shambolic their running of their own party has been over the past few years, you'll have to forgive me for viewing that assertion with a huge amount of skepticism.
 
Sadly it's not only your income that Labour want to pilfer, as they'll be finding lots of other ways to do so too. It's the general arrogance of socialists that they know so much better how to spend your money than you do. Cuddly Uncle Jezzer can be trusted to look after you, unless he doesn't like you like Tom Watson, when he'll try and knife you in the back. Thankfully the man is too incompetent to ever be prime minister.

Helpful reminder that Corbyn saved Tom Watson last week.
 
Here you can put your annual salary in and see how much more tax you'd pay under a labour govt than currently:


You'd only pay more if earning above 80k

Are we really suggesting that all of Labour's enormous spending proposals can be funded via a rise in income tax alone?
 
It's a fallacy to suggest that they're getting off scott free though, as the richest 5% already pay the vast majority of tax in the UK. The bottom 50% of earners contribute around 10% of the income tax income, with the wealthier half of society already paying as much as they ever did during the Labour years.

In reality though, income tax is a red herring as it's just the most obvious tax. Over 3/4 of government income comes via other taxes, and so Labour going after 'high earners' is just another class war policy in the mould of their privatisation plans for private schools.

As an aside, why don't you spend your current 'vanity' expenditure on those things? No local hospital will ever refuse donations, as I'm sure your local schools wouldn't either. You can contribute as much as you want without requiring Labour to force people to do so. It would be easier to support such a policy if those advocating it walked the walk themselves.

Of course the wealthiest pay the most (in theory, in actuality many avoid paying what they ought because of elaborate schemes, though that tends to be more the super rich). However they earn most of the money. I saw something on Richard Bacon the other day, where he said something like the top 5% pay 27% of the tax so we can't criticise them. However they earn 73% of the money, so in relative terms they are notreally contributing what they ought, or even close to it, if that makes sense?

As for the 2nd point, I believe that is fair. I don't think it's massively realistic from Mcdonnell, just as I don't think Johnsons giveaways, in the context of a hard Brexit Deal and lowering taxes are realistic. I also think, at this stage the electorate are going to massively appreciate a stringently honest approach (which Blair was very good at). I am not sure thats the epoch currently.

What Mcdonnell's manifesto does, is open the space and question that the reason why promises aren't kept to the full is because the wealthy avoiding their taxes, as opposed to those who are currently blamed, be it single mothers, the unemployed, migrants, refugees etc. Given the worrying rise of the far right, this is a worthwhile and arguably essential reset if we are to beat back some of these ideas.

I didn't mean to cause any offence with the "vanity" phrase, but given it's early on a Saturday I struggled to find a more apt one! I hope it can be seen that I wasn't trying to be lazy or offensive with it. Hayek speaks about this, which is what we do with our money and how the more money we have, the less essential it becomes. I've seen that myself, I started working at 15 on minimum wage and gradually built up as I've got older. The more money I have the less essential it feels, which is nice in many ways for me as an individual. However at a societal level I can also see why my preferences are not as essential as someone with very little money.

As for the final point you make, I would countenance against making assumptions on what people do with their money. Again what you are talking about is Hayek's idea that people will naturally give money away if they have lots. My answer would be that it ought to be under the democratic control of a government, as opposed to the whim of wealthier individuals. If you have the former you get all sorts of "deserving and undeserving" narratives that cause enormous damage to the fabric of society.

To change society for the better, we need a degree of coordination, centrality, planning and strategic decision making which I'm not sure can be done solely from relying upon the benevolence of individuals. Anyway I hope I haven't rubbed you up the wrong way, that wasn't my intention with comments such as vanity.
 
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