Current Affairs The Labour Party

[The binman chronicles]

What's the point in being in power if you offer the same as the Tories, which by and large is what Blair did.

Quick question was Blair/Brown's governments better than Cameron/May's? (not even going to say Johnson as that is a complete joke!)

They were not the same. Could they have done more? Of course. Blair has shown the pathway to power, that is where Labour should be positioned. That is what the majority in this country want. If you are starting a business and you see there is a huge demand for Apples, you don't start selling Bananas only. Sure you sell to the people like Bananas but that is nothing compared to the bloke next door who is selling apples at twice the rate.

A centre left Labour would sweep the board at an election, people want evolution and revolution. It doesn't have to make the same mistake as Blair's but it has to be along those lines.

If there is a big war in future and to fight that the industries such as shipbuilding, steel making, car production, mining, weapons and general manufacturing to replace what we got from abroad boom however generally the country is in a poor state - at that point a true socialist government might have a chance, but not now. More people in this country would define themselves as middle class now than ever before, with all the aspirations of doing better again for themselves and their children. They are going to be very weary of a left wing labour party who try to clip those aspirations.

 

[The binman chronicles]

What's the point in being in power if you offer the same as the Tories, which by and large is what Blair did.

The more left the party gets the more unelectable it becomes the more it allows a right wing Tory party to blossom without credible opposition. In other words it would be an act of self harm to Labour voters and the poorest in society.

 

[davek]

Quick question was Blair/Brown's governments better than Cameron/May's? (not even going to say Johnson as that is a complete joke!)

They were not the same. Could they have done more? Of course. Blair has shown the pathway to power, that is where Labour should be positioned. That is what the majority in this country want. If you are starting a business and you see there is a huge demand for Apples, you don't start selling Bananas only. Sure you sell to the people like Bananas but that is nothing compared to the bloke next door who is selling apples at twice the rate.

A centre left Labour would sweep the board at an election, people want evolution and revolution. It doesn't have to make the same mistake as Blair's but it has to be along those lines.

If there is a big war in future and to fight that the industries such as shipbuilding, steel making, car production, mining, weapons and general manufacturing to replace what we got from abroad boom however generally the country is in a poor state - at that point a true socialist government might have a chance, but not now. More people in this country would define themselves as middle class now than ever before, with all the aspirations of doing better again for themselves and their children. They are going to be very weary of a left wing labour party who try to clip those aspirations.

They worshipped the market; they launched murderous wars, conducted a witch-hunt against the Left, never made a dent on inequality.

Some "Labour" government that was.

 

[davek]

The more left the party gets the more unelectable it becomes the more it allows a right wing Tory party to blossom without credible opposition. In other words it would be an act of self harm to Labour voters and the poorest in society.

According to your definition of "Left", the LP of the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s you'd have described them as Marxist-Leninist mate.

 

[Amw79]

They worshipped the market; they launched murderous wars, conducted a witch-hunt against the Left, never made a dent on inequality.

Some "Labour" government that was.

It wasn’t a “left wing” labour for sure, but they did a lot of good for this country when they got in, particularly in NHS investment and improvement, to pick one example.

honestly, I’d give my back teeth to have a Blair 97 government in power after the next election, as currently we’re on course for a populist, Trump-style Johnson government.

We’re in danger of making the perfect the enemy of the good.

 

[BlueToff]

There's loads of reasons to criticise Corbyn. The bold isn't one of them.

Indeed, if he'd have fell for Johnson's trap and went for an election, that would have been a reason to criticise him, as it would have made him the dumbest person in the country.

I understand the reasons why he turned it down.

But they can't not complain about not been given a chance, which is what I've heard some Labour/Lib Dem MPs say. The same MPs which when pushed on a policy on Brexit for if they did win a GE are completely clueless.

 

[BlueToff]

He's gone back on his manifesto? I'm interested in how you think he's done this.

Surely you understand why he has turned down a general election?

The manifesto in 2017 promised they would uphold the referendum result.

Every soundbite from his frontbenchers lately has ignored that.

 

[Tubey]

I understand the reasons why he turned it down.

But they can't not complain about not been given a chance, which is what I've heard some Labour/Lib Dem MPs say. The same MPs which when pushed on a policy on Brexit for if they did win a GE are completely clueless.

Of course they can.

The election 'offer' isn't a chance for Labour. It's not a real offer, there isn't a choice to make.

 

[Tubey]

The manifesto in 2017 promised they would uphold the referendum result.

Every soundbite from his frontbenchers lately has ignored that.

That is still the position - they said they would get a deal. The 2017 manifesto ruled out no deal explicitly.

All that has changed is that they've added that they'll send the deal back to the people for confirmation. That is upholding the referendum result - people voted 'Leave', this is our interpretation of what 'Leave' looks like, is this acceptable and, if not, would you rather remain.

 

[davek]

It wasn’t a “left wing” labour for sure, but they did a lot of good for this country when they got in, particularly in NHS investment and improvement, to pick one example.

honestly, I’d give my back teeth to have a Blair 97 government in power after the next election, as currently we’re on course for a populist, Trump-style Johnson government.

We’re in danger of making the perfect the enemy of the good.

We need to be setting our sights higher than the Blair years and the mild touch on the breaks of the Tory-led neo-liberal project.

We need a root and branch transformation of the way we live. New Labour politicians haven't got the vision for that. And it's not what they believe in anyway.

 

[Amw79]

We need to be setting our sights higher than the Blair years and the mild touch on the breaks of the Tory-led neo-liberal project.

We need a root and branch transformation of the way we live. New Labour politicians haven't got the vision for that. And it's not what they believe in anyway.

I don’t disagree with that, but think that doesn’t reflect the mood of a majority in the country.

We’re in danger of having an ideologically perfect party and consigning ourselves to handful of MPs.

 

[davek]

I don’t disagree with that, but think that doesn’t reflect the mood of a majority in the country.

We’re in danger of having an ideologically perfect party and consigning ourselves to handful of MPs.

Public opinion on a whole range of issues are way to the left of centre, and have been for years.

There's a constituency out there that would be captured if the LP right wingers and the media allowed the Labour Party message through.

 

[Amw79]

Public opinion on a whole range of issues are way to the left of centre, and have been for years.

There's a constituency out there that would be captured if the LP right wingers and the media allowed the Labour Party message through.

agree with the first point, but the bit in bold is the nail in the coffin.

As long as the media can easily withhold the core message, while at the same time painting a left wing Labour Party as some sort of socialist / communist threat, we’ll never get enough traction the ballot box.

trying to get a perfect LP at this moment in time is suicide. Any labour government, left wing, centre left, whatever, is preferable to the current populist, right wing threat.

While you and I, who likely politically agree on 90% of stuff, are arguing about what the LP should be, Johnson and his cronies are sweeping up support.

 

[peteblue]

Well, let me give you the benefit of my experience of LP history. Corbyn is basically Old School Labour: nationalisation, mixed economy, opposition to private schools, pro-TUs etc etc. Even his opposition to nukes are old hat. As for "comrades": a term of address at LP Conference since, well, forever.

The Blair years were an abberation. The type of entryism that Militant were have supposed to have carried out in the 80s was, in fact, carried out by the neo-liberal right. The LP now is re-emerging out of that place like a kidnap victim that's escaped their captors.

The Blair years were indeed an aberration, he won 3 general elections, the last Labour leader to win an election was Harold Wilson in 1974. That should tell you something.......

 

[Charlie Sweet]

We need to be setting our sights higher than the Blair years and the mild touch on the breaks of the Tory-led neo-liberal project.

We need a root and branch transformation of the way we live. New Labour politicians haven't got the vision for that. And it's not what they believe in anyway.

You are clueless. Stand on your soapbox and rant a bit. Its completely pointless hence the whole comparison with Momentum and rabid student politics.

You dont live in the real world. Blair was a massive upgrade on Major and miles better than Cameron and what followed.

You seek to ignore and try and row back about 35 years of Labour modernisation. Its laughable and actually just serves to hammer the UK with a hard Tory party.

Corbyn/Momentum only really appeal to a die-hard 10%. Mass nationalisation? Banning private schools and all out attacks on pretty much the whole business community? No thanks. Not going to work in reality however much it gets the juices running for the hairy and unwashed left.

I have been a labour party member since 1994. I believe in higher taxes to support key public services. I support a true living wage and much tighter environmental protection paid for by relevant businesses. But all that needs to be done in a smart and sensible way. Hence where people like Mandelson and Campbell were critical to Blair's success.