Current Affairs The Labour Party

[NilSatisOptimum]

Tom Watson had his chance at last week's NEC meeting to raise any issues he had. He stayed silent. Instead he walked out of the meeting and straight to the BBC to vent his gripes. Watson is doing everything the can to undermine the Labour party. And that includes cowardly attacking the integrity of a woman undergoing chemotherapy. I'd say it's about time the Labour party suspend this bully who is constantly attempting to intimidate a woman.

Mmm, probably what he wants, being suspended!

As for Jenny Formby, unless she is on sick leave and is active in work role like anyone she is open to criticism, more with how it's delivered...

Watson does have a habit of running his mouth off, remember his Westminster kiddy fiddler speech in Parliament which was loaded and caused uproar on opposition benches...

 

[Boss_Blue]

David Collier is a freelance journalist who has done a lot of unpaid digging around anti-Semitism through personal interest. He put this together. It's not a comfortable read.

http://david-collier.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Labour-and-antisemitic-conspiracy-theory.pdf

State of that.

 

[summerisle]

 

[catcherintherye]

Miles ahead in Survation too. Basically (as I've said numerous times over a longer term period) Yougov is an outlier. I suspect deliberately so.

What is interesting, is the more they keep pushing the angle that Jeremy Corbyn, the most prominent anti-racist is actually a racist, ittends to stop Labour's decline in the polls and actually leads to them gaining support. I think for even people who don't like him, they realise how ridiculous it is, and beyond a small number of hardened anti-corbyn people it just turns them away.

From a party perspective there comes a point where you just ignore it. It's not damaging Labour. You continue to fight racism on all fronts and don't get dragged into a war of words with orgs like the BBC pushing their agenda.

 

[peteblue]

Miles ahead in Survation too. Basically (as I've said numerous times over a longer term period) Yougov is an outlier. I suspect deliberately so.

What is interesting, is the more they keep pushing the angle that Jeremy Corbyn, the most prominent anti-racist is actually a racist, ittends to stop Labour's decline in the polls and actually leads to them gaining support. I think for even people who don't like him, they realise how ridiculous it is, and beyond a small number of hardened anti-corbyn people it just turns them away.

From a party perspective there comes a point where you just ignore it. It's not damaging Labour. You continue to fight racism on all fronts and don't get dragged into a war of words with orgs like the BBC pushing their agenda.

The problem with the narrative that Corbyn is a prominent anti-racist is that he has done nothing to eliminate or address the issue of anti-semitism and therefore lays himself wide open to attack, even from his own party. I have little time for Tom Watson who is a stirrer of the worst sort and merely sees this as an opportunity to replace Corbyn, but this anti-semitism is sticking and will not go away.....

 

[tsubaki]

The problem with the narrative that Corbyn is a prominent anti-racist is that he has done nothing to eliminate or address the issue of anti-semitism and therefore lays himself wide open to attack, even from his own party. I have little time for Tom Watson who is a stirrer of the worst sort and merely sees this as an opportunity to replace Corbyn, but this anti-semitism is sticking and will not go away.....

He (and Labour) have done lots to try to eliminate it and address it, though they could (and can) do more. One of the best would be the demand for a genuinely independent and fair complaints system - this is something the leadership should have been all over, given that it would (hopefully) make the post-Corbyn backlash that much more difficult and would prevent it (the complaints system) being abused in the way that it has been.

The problem Corbyn has though is that there probably isn't anything he can do to silence the complaints from his enemies inside the party and the PLP, nor would they (probably) recognise it if he did eliminate the problem of anti-semitism, nor would the press probably report it honestly either. There is an awful lot of things that are scandals when they are done by Corbyn or "his allies"* - like deselecting people, threatening people with deselection, criticising people whilst they are ill / pregnant, speaking rudely on twitter - are emphatically not scandals when one of them does it.

Perhaps the best example of this is, ironically, Corbyn himself. As you will know, there is a fairly long charge sheet that has been drawn up, with varying (often little) justification, against Corbyn as evidence that he is an anti-semite; almost all of it dates from before he became leader. During that time, when we are told Labour didn't have an anti-semitism problem, when the leadership didn't intervene in cases to protect people, when Iain McNicol (one of the "whistleblowers" from Panorama) was General Secretary for four years, when the NEC, the PLP, the leadership and the Disputes Panel were not controlled by the left, what did they do about what was going on? What did they do when Ava Etemadzadeh reported what Kelvin Hopkins had allegedly done? What did they do when Labour MPs were looting the expenses system?

* which turned out in some cases to be one person within one CLP who was thinking of submitting a motion, or who submitted it but it was withdrawn

 

[catcherintherye]

The problem with the narrative that Corbyn is a prominent anti-racist is that he has done nothing to eliminate or address the issue of anti-semitism and therefore lays himself wide open to attack, even from his own party. I have little time for Tom Watson who is a stirrer of the worst sort and merely sees this as an opportunity to replace Corbyn, but this anti-semitism is sticking and will not go away.....

It won't be the most PC answer but I suppose I believe in telling the truth however difficult, my take on it is that there isn't a substantial problem with A/S in Labour, or certainly not a structural one. There are undoubtedly members who are anti-semitic (as well as racist,s exist, homophobic etc) because why would the Labour Party be immune from these issues. The evidence shows us Labour is less Anti-semitic than the rest of the country, other political parties and it has reduced under Jeremy Corbyn.

The issue where there is a question is around anti-zionism. Or increasingly now any notion of support or base level of humanity or decency for the Palestinian people is now framed as anti-Israel and therefore anti-semitic. I don't actually think Corbyn is even (structurally speaking) Anti-Zionist, it's my understanding he's a two state solution man so is quite au fait with a zionist state. So it doesn't really matter how many concessions he gives, it will never be enough.

I probably under estimated the creation of Israel was into the DNA of what we might call the conservative section of the party heirachy. They see it as central as the NHS, welfare state etc created by Atlee. It has strong roots. They see Corbyn as representative of a faction of people who have sympathy towards the victims of that process.

Corbyn has handled the issue badly by at best ignoring the issue or at worst trying to argue for things that are untrue. I'd hope anyone sensible can see that none of the above that I have put is racist towards Jewish people. If you have the right intentions you should not be scared to share them, however difficult and over time you hope to convince people.

I don't believe in the creation of religious states. Whether that is Israel, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. I don't see what good can really come of them.That doesn't mean I hate Muslims or Jewish people, it's that I have hope for humanity that people can live together amongst other faiths and no faiths at all.

Corbyn hasn't really done that though. He has caved in on the definition of anti-semitism to make it that any criticism of Israel can be viewed as anti-semitic. Never mind talking about it's structural basis you can't even pas criticism. He hoped that compromise would be enough to make it go away. However he misunderstands his opponents. It's just strengthened them. Whatever compromise he makes will never be enough, as they don't want him as leader, and don't want a leader who may show some sympathy to Palestinian people.

Likewise Richard Burgons attempts, to make out they have never supported Palestinian people, or that if they did it was a mistake or they were misquoted is ridiculous and completely untrue. Everyone knows it. Everyone knows the left have taken a broadly sympathetic position on Palestine. The intellectual duplicity (and cowardice) isn't helping.

There is a chaos it is causing which isn't helping. However when Labour are bold they seem to do better. I believe there are lots of Jewish people who are rightly offended by this and my gripe isn't with them. It's people like Watson, who are using those people to cause enough damage so he can take over. This is a guy who was a brexiteer, until he realised remain was a better option and now wants to get rid of Corbyn because he won't remain. I don't think he's a principled man at all, and it pains me enormously to think he is in any position to lecture me about anything, particular racism.

So it's a mess. I saw a transcript the other day that an elderly Jewish man was kicked out, because he asked an investigator (who he didn't know was Jewish) what branch he was from. This was reported back that he was being anti-semitic. It's like 1984 in Labour currently but in truth Corbyn lacks the back bone (or intelligence) to stand up for people.

I like Corbyn (mainly personally but also politically) but he's allowing people like Tom Watson to take liberties with to loyal supporters of Corbyn and Jewish people, which leaves a sower taste to say the least.

 

[roydo]

It won't be the most PC answer but I suppose I believe in telling the truth however difficult, my take on it is that there isn't a substantial problem with A/S in Labour, or certainly not a structural one. There are undoubtedly members who are anti-semitic (as well as racist,s exist, homophobic etc) because why would the Labour Party be immune from these issues. The evidence shows us Labour is less Anti-semitic than the rest of the country, other political parties and it has reduced under Jeremy Corbyn.

The issue where there is a question is around anti-zionism. Or increasingly now any notion of support or base level of humanity or decency for the Palestinian people is now framed as anti-Israel and therefore anti-semitic. I don't actually think Corbyn is even (structurally speaking) Anti-Zionist, it's my understanding he's a two state solution man so is quite au fait with a zionist state. So it doesn't really matter how many concessions he gives, it will never be enough.

I probably under estimated the creation of Israel was into the DNA of what we might call the conservative section of the party heirachy. They see it as central as the NHS, welfare state etc created by Atlee. It has strong roots. They see Corbyn as representative of a faction of people who have sympathy towards the victims of that process.

Corbyn has handled the issue badly by at best ignoring the issue or at worst trying to argue for things that are untrue. I'd hope anyone sensible can see that none of the above that I have put is racist towards Jewish people. If you have the right intentions you should not be scared to share them, however difficult and over time you hope to convince people.

I don't believe in the creation of religious states. Whether that is Israel, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. I don't see what good can really come of them.That doesn't mean I hate Muslims or Jewish people, it's that I have hope for humanity that people can live together amongst other faiths and no faiths at all.

Corbyn hasn't really done that though. He has caved in on the definition of anti-semitism to make it that any criticism of Israel can be viewed as anti-semitic. Never mind talking about it's structural basis you can't even pas criticism. He hoped that compromise would be enough to make it go away. However he misunderstands his opponents. It's just strengthened them. Whatever compromise he makes will never be enough, as they don't want him as leader, and don't want a leader who may show some sympathy to Palestinian people.

Likewise Richard Burgons attempts, to make out they have never supported Palestinian people, or that if they did it was a mistake or they were misquoted is ridiculous and completely untrue. Everyone knows it. Everyone knows the left have taken a broadly sympathetic position on Palestine. The intellectual duplicity (and cowardice) isn't helping.

There is a chaos it is causing which isn't helping. However when Labour are bold they seem to do better. I believe there are lots of Jewish people who are rightly offended by this and my gripe isn't with them. It's people like Watson, who are using those people to cause enough damage so he can take over. This is a guy who was a brexiteer, until he realised remain was a better option and now wants to get rid of Corbyn because he won't remain. I don't think he's a principled man at all, and it pains me enormously to think he is in any position to lecture me about anything, particular racism.

So it's a mess. I saw a transcript the other day that an elderly Jewish man was kicked out, because he asked an investigator (who he didn't know was Jewish) what branch he was from. This was reported back that he was being anti-semitic. It's like 1984 in Labour currently but in truth Corbyn lacks the back bone (or intelligence) to stand up for people.

I like Corbyn (mainly personally but also politically) but he's allowing people like Tom Watson to take liberties with to loyal supporters of Corbyn and Jewish people, which leaves a sower taste to say the least.

As ever, a reasonable and well presented post.

But as a largely neutral observer of all things Corbyn/Labour, but also part of the great unwashed who might need to be convinced to support him, its the default position that he and his closest supporters take that dont really appeal that much.

As in, all things Merica, bad. All things Israel, bad, all things Palestine, good.

Now I fully accept that I am not a student of all this, and also, I would guess that I have been infiltrated by the MSN etc etc, but even if that was correct, (it isnt), its still kinda off putting.

 

[tsubaki]

As ever, a reasonable and well presented post.

But as a largely neutral observer of all things Corbyn/Labour, but also part of the great unwashed who might need to be convinced to support him, its the default position that he and his closest supporters take that dont really appeal that much.

As in, all things Merica, bad. All things Israel, bad, all things Palestine, good.

Now I fully accept that I am not a student of all this, and also, I would guess that I have been infiltrated by the MSN etc etc, but even if that was correct, (it isnt), its still kinda off putting.

The anti-imperialist left do certainly give out that vibe, and Corbyn was one of them to a long time - though then again I think they are entitled to feel a little of "I told you so" given that the US President is openly racially abusing people, the Israelis in the past 18 months have shot more than a thousand people because they went near a fence and the rest of the West stood by and watched whilst the same President destroyed the one diplomatic agreement of the past twenty years that was actually working.

 

[roydo]

The anti-imperialist left do certainly give out that vibe, and Corbyn was one of them to a long time - though then again I think they are entitled to feel a little of "I told you so" given that the US President is openly racially abusing people, the Israelis in the past 18 months have shot more than a thousand people because they went near a fence and the rest of the West stood by and watched whilst the same President destroyed the one diplomatic agreement of the past twenty years that was actually working.

Well yeah, the most recent US President has made their natural anti US stance more laudable!

 

[catcherintherye]

As ever, a reasonable and well presented post.

But as a largely neutral observer of all things Corbyn/Labour, but also part of the great unwashed who might need to be convinced to support him, its the default position that he and his closest supporters take that dont really appeal that much.

As in, all things Merica, bad. All things Israel, bad, all things Palestine, good.

Now I fully accept that I am not a student of all this, and also, I would guess that I have been infiltrated by the MSN etc etc, but even if that was correct, (it isnt), its still kinda off putting.

You too mate. What do you think his default position is? I'd say part of the problem is really a lack of clarity.

If your view (which I assume is many people's view) that he believes all things Israel bad, all things Palestine good then he has a major problem because it's not his viewpoint. But then if you don't communicate your view very clearly you can hardly complain if people have an inaccurate view of you.

To some extent you are influenced by the media as we all are. However the media get far more traction to influence people if you haven't got the bravery to say what you think.

I don't think his position would even be that unpopular (I'd say it would likely be quite popular). Namely Israel has a right to exist, the human rights abuses that go on towards the Palestinians need to stop, there needs to be an equitable carving up of the land to allow for two states and that Palestinian organisations need to stop with terrorist attacks.

I am paraphrasing but that is what I suggest his position is. I think such a position would be quite popular. If thats the case why is he not shouting that clearly from the rooftops?

His inaction on the question (I believe) is because he feels the best way to deal with conflict is to firstly ignore and then compromise on it. However given the severity of the accusations such a defensive stance has created the impression that there is a lot more going on than there is and his relative silence on the area has made it look like he's hiding somethingor at the very least people don't seem to know what his position is.

We can argue all day about the role of the media in this. However in truth he only has himself and his team around him to blame who are not dealing with the question well enough in terms of standing their ground. (This disquiet is also leading to those who are anti-semitic in the party to also begin to broaden their blame away from the media and onto "Jews" too, which is another disastrous element of this but in truth a whole new story).

 

[catcherintherye]

Well yeah, the most recent US President has made their natural anti US stance more laudable!

Trump is a walking advertisement for Corbyn and an absolute disaster for the Conservative Party, particularly Boris Johnson. In all of Johnson almost fraudulent alter ego's, the brash American racist clone is the least believable of them and he will be found out quite quickly if he hasn't been already.

 

[roydo]

But then if you don't communicate your view very clearly you can hardly complain if people have an inaccurate view of you.

Kinda that really.

 

[catcherintherye]

Kinda that really.

Yes I don't really hold to the blame the media thing. Yes there's a bias in the media. Most Labour leaders have to contend with that. It's probably a bit sharper for Corbyn than for say Blair, Brown or Miliband but they all faced it. There's very little clarity though, and his defensiveness looks like guilt. I don't think they understand that.

 

[magicjuan]

The problem with the narrative that Corbyn is a prominent anti-racist is that he has done nothing to eliminate or address the issue of anti-semitism and therefore lays himself wide open to attack, even from his own party. I have little time for Tom Watson who is a stirrer of the worst sort and merely sees this as an opportunity to replace Corbyn, but this anti-semitism is sticking and will not go away.....

Of course, because it's rule #1 of propaganda, keep repeating the lie.
The problem that Watson, Ryan and that uber bellwhiff Hodge have is they keep accusing Corbyn himself as an anti semite. They shift interpretations of examples of anti semitism to encompass anything that doesn't hold Israel in high regard and free from criticism.
That you have a willing and complicit media and absolute nomarks like Rachel Riley and Oberman flaring up social media, plus the support of Hopkins, and it's beyon parody.
The new concept of wanting an investigation into conservative party Islamaphobia being 'anti semitic' is ridiculous to the Nth degree.