Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Nightman]

It's easy to assume that the rest of the population wants what diehards want. I'm not sure that's the case at all, and most don't really want much change at all.

Oh I absolutely agree. And please don't label me a diehard.

It's the younger generations who wanted/want change. You have no Idea how it feels to see what the older generations have/had and how easy it was for them to obtain it, compared to today's adult life. Of course you don't want change - you never had it so good.

And if you don't get that by now, you never will.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Oh I absolutely agree. And please don't label me a diehard.

It's the younger generations who wanted/want change. You have no Idea how it feels to see what the older generations have/had and how easy it was for them to obtain it, compared to today's adult life. Of course you don't want change - you never had it so good.

And if you don't get that by now, you never will.

I don't mean diehard as an insult. I suspect most of us on this forum qualify for that as we all take an active interest in politics. I guess GOT is perhaps illustrative though, as the overwhelming majority of members here can't be arsed with this forum.

Regarding young people, it would probably do them a great service if they took that enthusiasm and actually voted. Politics tends to veer towards what older people want and need precisely because the parties know they vote whereas young people don't. They need to get off their backside if they want things to change.

 

[Nightman]

I don't mean diehard as an insult. I suspect most of us on this forum qualify for that as we all take an active interest in politics. I guess GOT is perhaps illustrative though, as the overwhelming majority of members here can't be arsed with this forum.

Regarding young people, it would probably do them a great service if they took that enthusiasm and actually voted. Politics tends to veer towards what older people want and need precisely because the parties know they vote whereas young people don't. They need to get off their backside if they want things to change.

Young people did - in 2017. And it still wasn't enough. Next time around it'll be even more difficult (I.D. for voting).

Rather than critcise the young for being lazy, consider that at some point the older generations need to take a collective responsibility and decide together that not everything in life is about sodding house prices. Society and communities are falling apart - help be the change.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Young people did - in 2017. And it still wasn't enough. Next time around it'll be even more difficult (I.D. for voting).

Rather than critcise the young for being lazy, consider that at some point the older generations need to take a collective responsibility and decide together that not everything in life is about sodding house prices. Society and communities are falling apart - help be the change.

It's relative though, isn't it? Even with the boost in turnout in 2017, the turnout among the young was still about 20% less than it was for the over 65s and lower than every other age group. There's not really any softer way of phrasing things. If young people want their views to be considered, they need to vote more. Regarding the ID situation, yes, I agree, it's a crazy situation, but considering we're talking here about young people wanting change and wanting revolution, yet they're seemingly not wanting it enough to get a form of ID or to vote.

 

[Nightman]

It's relative though, isn't it? Even with the boost in turnout in 2017, the turnout among the young was still about 20% less than it was for the over 65s and lower than every other age group. There's not really any softer way of phrasing things. If young people want their views to be considered, they need to vote more. Regarding the ID situation, yes, I agree, it's a crazy situation, but considering we're talking here about young people wanting change and wanting revolution, yet they're seemingly not wanting it enough to get a form of ID or to vote.

View attachment 209228

Thank you for the graph.

No one talking about a revolution! Your use of language on the subject of young people is very telling.

But affordable housing, a fair wage and a standard of living equal but not worse than what you had is all I would personally want. Should we have to have a revolution for that?? Millennials are the first generation in history to have it worse off than their parents. And let's be clear - we are far worse off...and it hurts when they either just don't get it or just don't care.

More widely, an equal and fairer society and community spirit would be most welcome and for the greater good of the country.

Why don't you want others to have that? Why don't you do something about that?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Thank you for the graph.

No one talking about a revolution! Your use of language on the subject of young people is very telling.

But affordable housing, a fair wage and a standard of living equal but not worse than what you had is all I would personally want. Should we have to have a revolution for that?? Millennials are the first generation in history to have it worse off than their parents. And let's be clear - we are far worse off...and it hurts when they either just don't get it or just don't care.

More widely, an equal and fairer society and community spirit would be most welcome and for the greater good of the country.

Why don't you want others to have that? Why don't you do something about that?

In the context of politics, that is a pretty substantial change, or it would require it in order to elicit the kind of things you want. Take Brexit, for instance, which most, myself included, think has been a disaster, yet it's only shifted GDP by a few percent at most. Most of the time, things change in tiny increments, which is how many like it.

For what it's worth, for the last 9 months or so I've been working heavily on the levelling up agenda, and before that on inequities of various sorts, so I do get it. As a freelancer, I'm also certainly not in a gilded tower protected from the world, and my missus is a nurse in the NHS working with some of the most disadvantaged members of our community.

So yeah, I get that things need to change, and sincerely hope that Labour takes advantage of the massive open goal to turf the Tories out. All I'm saying is that if young people want Westminster to act more in their interests, they need to vote far more than they do right now. That's the reality. Politicians will act if it's in their interests to do so.

 

[Eggs]

…..great opportunity for Labour to act swiftly today & throw Abbott into the political wilderness with Corbyn. That would send the right message to the Electorate that wing of the party is a thing of the past.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

So I sought out the comments from Abbott (posted below) to see if this was a storm in a teacup situation

I actually think it's perfectly acceptable if they kick her out of the party

Kind of interesting how she mentions all of those horrible regimes but then doesn't mention a certain one that was around in Germany in the 30's and 40's because it doesn't help prove her point

Oppression is not a competition

Racism is black and white​

Tomiwa Owolade claims that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people all suffer from “racism” (“Racism in Britain is not a black and white issue. It’s far more complicated”, Comment). They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable.

It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships.
Diane Abbott
House of Commons, London SW1

 

[Nightman]

So I sought out the comments from Abbott (posted below) to see if this was a storm in a teacup situation

I actually think it's perfectly acceptable if they kick her out of the party

Kind of interesting how she mentions all of those horrible regimes but then doesn't mention a certain one that was around in Germany in the 30's and 40's because it doesn't help prove her point

Oppression is not a competition

Racism is black and white​

Tomiwa Owolade claims that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people all suffer from “racism” (“Racism in Britain is not a black and white issue. It’s far more complicated”, Comment). They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable.

It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships.
Diane Abbott
House of Commons, London SW1

Pretty ignorant of her at best. Deliberately diluting other forms of racism at worst.

I agree - either way, she needs to go.

 

[Nightman]

for the last 9 months or so I've been working heavily on the levelling up agenda

How have you personally found the project and how do you think it's going in general, if you don't mind me asking?

Thanks

 

[Amw79]

So I sought out the comments from Abbott (posted below) to see if this was a storm in a teacup situation

I actually think it's perfectly acceptable if they kick her out of the party

Kind of interesting how she mentions all of those horrible regimes but then doesn't mention a certain one that was around in Germany in the 30's and 40's because it doesn't help prove her point

Oppression is not a competition

Racism is black and white​

Tomiwa Owolade claims that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people all suffer from “racism” (“Racism in Britain is not a black and white issue. It’s far more complicated”, Comment). They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable.

It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships.
Diane Abbott
House of Commons, London SW1

When I first saw the headlines I thought she’d maybe been talking in an interview and had just run her mouth and inadvertently put her foot in it.

The fact that it’s a written letter makes it much worse, as she’s had time to think and articulate her thoughts down on paper, so is likely her actual considered opinion on the topic.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

How have you personally found the project and how do you think it's going in general, if you don't mind me asking?

Thanks

Of course. I don't think it's really done anything, for a number of reasons. The obvious first one is that it was primarily an electoral play and the Tories never really had any interest in it. Being a Johnsonian project, it also leaned heavily towards big infrastructure projects, such as HS2, which, even aside from any actual merit in the thing itself, are nearly always massively over budget and delivered way beyond when they're supposed to. But he loves/loved his vanity projects, so it's been blundered ahead with. It's also a pretty heavily centralised process, with localities applying for funding from Whitehall, who retain the final say on what gets supported. This misses a key opportunity to give communities greater say and agency over their own affairs, which is especially problematic given the significant impact on local government funding since 2010. And don't get me started on free ports.

In our work with communities in the south-east/Anglia (and in France), we found that meaningful results can be achieved in a few different ways, all of which are rather more low-key but are henceforth actually achievable:

• Invest in community facilities as a priority, as these not only help to build social capital in communities but also help to regain some of the local pride that has been lost after prolonged periods of deprivation. It's difficult for either individuals or communities to thrive if they don't believe it's possible so giving some pride and agency back is important.
• Tap into net zero, as while there is an obvious demand for things like renewable energy or better insulation, we often lack the skilled people to deliver on that agenda. Addressing this could help to provide both good local jobs and also lower cost energy that is generated and distributed locally. The Co-Op has dipped its toes into this kind of thing but it's not in any way widespread. There is also a good crossover in terms of skills between post-industrial jobs and clean energy jobs so this could be a feasible transition for those communities.
• Improving digital skills, as while there has been a big push towards things like cybersecurity, data science, and coding, there are many who lack basic digital literacy, which is a huge barrier to participation in our largely digital society. This could help to address significant inequalities in areas such as healthcare and financial services, where many are frozen out.
• Encourage returnees. Human capital is clearly very important, and there have been a number of projects around the world looking to entice people to, say, coastal communities. These have often focused on artists or digital nomads. It was our argument that these newcomers are often resented because they're outsiders, so instead efforts should be focused on those who left communities for school or work and to try and encourage them to return, bringing their skills, capital, and networks with them.

That's a very nutshell version of our findings anyway.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

When I first saw the headlines I thought she’d maybe been talking in an interview and had just run her mouth and inadvertently put her foot in it.

The fact that it’s a written letter makes it much worse, as she’s had time to think and articulate her thoughts down on paper, so is likely her actual considered opinion on the topic.

She's tried saying it was a "first draft" and "wasn't meant to be sent"

Then why did you send it then?!?!

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

…..great opportunity for Labour to act swiftly today & throw Abbott into the political wilderness with Corbyn. That would send the right message to the Electorate that wing of the party is a thing of the past.

Wasted no time in removing the whip. Beggars belief what Abbott was trying to convey. As someone myself who works with the traveling committee going to enjoy a perspective on this.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

She's tried saying it was a "first draft" and "wasn't meant to be sent"

Then why did you send it then?!?!

Even in draft it's awful. Mind bogglingly, Abbot the single largest victim of much of the racism Mps get was trying to draw different distinction. Growing up from a teenager in Wales being distinctively English suffered racism not just from peers but adults teaching and others. Granted not on the level as black person or Jewish heritage etc. However, everyone can be victim of racism.