The Koeman Supporters Thread.

Status
Not open for further replies.
For those still giving Koeman time, where is the line? At what point does it become unacceptable? When should action be taken?

Genuine question.

It's been noted recently in the media that he hasn't endeared himself to the supporters or club generally. This has been from the beginning. The whole '3 year project' thing had me nervous at the start. He hasn't shown any passion for the club, nor his team. A few fiery rants would show he gives a shiny one, but that never comes across, ever, no pride displayed either.
If he showed a bit more 'concern' it would buy him some grace with supporters, but he hasn't, so it won't happen. I think he knows it isn't going to happen hence the complete meh approach that's winding a lot of us up.
 
The longer we give him the harder it will be to pull us out of this tail spin we're in.....some think it's best to give him time, but he'll do more damage than good the longer he stays imho.
 
Only reason for keeping Koeman is the fear of who we get in next. Very much doubt we would even look at Moyes but would hate him back. Koeman to blame for games yet how much do you blame Walsh for summer transfers too?
 
For those still giving Koeman time, where is the line? At what point does it become unacceptable? When should action be taken?

Genuine question.

It's been noted recently in the media that he hasn't endeared himself to the supporters or club generally. This has been from the beginning. The whole '3 year project' thing had me nervous at the start. He hasn't shown any passion for the club, nor his team. A few fiery rants would show he gives a shiny one, but that never comes across, ever, no pride displayed either.
If he showed a bit more 'concern' it would buy him some grace with supporters, but he hasn't, so it won't happen. I think he knows it isn't going to happen hence the complete meh approach that's winding a lot of us up.

He has done nothing to deserve more time, absolutely nothing. He has no clue how he wants us to play or what his preferred formation is, we have nothing at all to gain by giving him more time.
 
This is Everton's worst points tally (8) after nine games of a Premier League season since 2005-06 - when they had four points but finished the campaign in 11th place.

We never got rid of Moyes at that time, It's hard to make a strong case for giving him more time but I think he should be given a bit longer as there are so many new faces but it has that feeling of delaying the inevitable about it now, personally I hope he sorts it out.
Moyes got a pass and lots of patience that season because we'd finished 4th the previous season (still our best finish of the PL era). Because lots of us felt a massive sense of injustice that our season wouldn't of fallen apart had we not been robbed in the CL qualifier and because (and this is the most important one) we didnt have a pot to piss in back then!

Koeman has gone into this season with very little expectations other then to improve, build on the previous season and be more competitive with the "bigger sides". He's had a kings ransom to spend only to leave us in a worse position then when he started. Comparing 05-06 to this season is like apples and oranges.
 
For those still giving Koeman time, where is the line? At what point does it become unacceptable? When should action be taken?

Genuine question.

It's been noted recently in the media that he hasn't endeared himself to the supporters or club generally. This has been from the beginning. The whole '3 year project' thing had me nervous at the start. He hasn't shown any passion for the club, nor his team. A few fiery rants would show he gives a shiny one, but that never comes across, ever, no pride displayed either.
If he showed a bit more 'concern' it would buy him some grace with supporters, but he hasn't, so it won't happen. I think he knows it isn't going to happen hence the complete meh approach that's winding a lot of us up
.

I agree with this.

I suppose it is a bit like being in a loveless marriage! Why stay? Even the kids aren't that keen on you.
 
For those still giving Koeman time, where is the line? At what point does it become unacceptable? When should action be taken?

Genuine question.

It's been noted recently in the media that he hasn't endeared himself to the supporters or club generally. This has been from the beginning. The whole '3 year project' thing had me nervous at the start. He hasn't shown any passion for the club, nor his team. A few fiery rants would show he gives a shiny one, but that never comes across, ever, no pride displayed either.
If he showed a bit more 'concern' it would buy him some grace with supporters, but he hasn't, so it won't happen. I think he knows it isn't going to happen hence the complete meh approach that's winding a lot of us up.

Salient and reasonable questions, Juan, which could be answered either way depending on your viewpoint. I suspect only the board or an independent reviewer could answer them objectively.

In relation to endearing himself to us, I think I’m right in assuming this relates to his initial hesitancy to join us and in his treatment of Ross Barkley.

Regarding the former, it was always going to be a pontoon style of negotiation between ourselves and Southampton who made no bones about wanting to keep him. And why not with his reputation and association with great clubs both as player and manager? Isn’t this why we wanted him in the first place? In his own interest, he was enjoying relative success at Southampton, in a pretty safe post as far as Premiership managers or coaches go in this cut-throat day and age of professional football, and without much of the pressure inextricably linked with such a prestigious role. If he was going to be prised away and endure the inevitable risk, he had to make sure it was worth it: time to do his job (3 years’ contract is currently the norm), money available to rebuild (couple of hundred million initially, although a drop in the ocean by today’s footballing currency) and just rewards for doing so (the minutiae of covering himself if it all went wrong no doubt formed a veritable portion of any negotiation, and we can now see why). In hindsight, this wasn’t unreasonable behaviour, IMHO; it seems nobody does anything for nothing in this modern world of ours.

With regard to the latter, any rumours of a spat between he and Ross are irrelevant in my opinion. It was pretty obvious that from Ross’s point of view, he’d outgrown us and was seeking pastures new for greater gain, whomever was at the helm; really, who can blame him in these mercenary days of players and greedy agents, especially when his ego thinks he should be entering stage right at some bigger venue. And perhaps he should, although the naivety displayed in some of his play is telling to most, although Ross himself has yet to discover this overt flaw in his playing style. In short, Ross had considered himself out of the door before the ink had even dried on the Koeman contract, and there’s no doubt at all that Koeman would have had the nod dropped about this one. There’s no point factoring in a resource to any strategy if it’s not an option - a pretty obvious fundamental.

Passion’s a difficult one and depends not only on an individual’s personality but also their culture. In fairness and perhaps in my limited experience, this is not a Dutch characteristic.They seem a fairly laid back bunch on the whole, satired best I believe by Paul Whitehouse and Harry Enfield with their two Dutch Bohemian type cop characters, so here, I reckon we can throw old Koeman a bit of slack.

Compare and contrast this with Nobby Klopp* over the Park who has the stuff in spades. Yes, even I find his enthusiasm attractive at times and would like to see more if it here at Everton. But in the long term, if quiet and unassuming pays dividends, does it really matter? On that note, it was difficult to ignore Klopp’s unusual lack of animation during yesterday’s game with Spurs, in which they were beaten by three goals, leaving them adrift of their coveted top four place in ninth position.

Incidentally, why does BBC news report them merely being beaten by Spurs while we were ‘Overrun’ by Arsenal when we were both beaten by the same goal margin. I see it’s not just S*y that treats us with contempt!

Finally, I believe he does care about our current predicament, even if some of us would prefer to think of it as merely just for his own selfish interest. The red eyes, broken diction and general down at heel demeanour are not the traits of somebody who doesn’t give one. If it’s crocodile tears, then he’s a great actor and should perhaps speak to Bill about a change of career. But I, for one, bought it. His post match interview made for uncomfortable viewing.

*Many at the RS have questioned the wisdom of offering Klopp a six year extension only twelve months into his three year contract.
 
Salient and reasonable questions, Juan, which could be answered either way depending on your viewpoint. I suspect only the board or an independent reviewer could answer them objectively.

In relation to endearing himself to us, I think I’m right in assuming this relates to his initial hesitancy to join us and in his treatment of Ross Barkley.

Regarding the former, it was always going to be a pontoon style of negotiation between ourselves and Southampton who made no bones about wanting to keep him. And why not with his reputation and association with great clubs both as player and manager? Isn’t this why we wanted him in the first place? In his own interest, he was enjoying relative success at Southampton, in a pretty safe post as far as Premiership managers or coaches go in this cut-throat day and age of professional football, and without much of the pressure inextricably linked with such a prestigious role. If he was going to be prised away and endure the inevitable risk, he had to make sure it was worth it: time to do his job (3 years’ contract is currently the norm), money available to rebuild (couple of hundred million initially, although a drop in the ocean by today’s footballing currency) and just rewards for doing so (the minutiae of covering himself if it all went wrong no doubt formed a veritable portion of any negotiation, and we can now see why). In hindsight, this wasn’t unreasonable behaviour, IMHO; it seems nobody does anything for nothing in this modern world of ours.

With regard to the latter, any rumours of a spat between he and Ross are irrelevant in my opinion. It was pretty obvious that from Ross’s point of view, he’d outgrown us and was seeking pastures new for greater gain, whomever was at the helm; really, who can blame him in these mercenary days of players and greedy agents, especially when his ego thinks he should be entering stage right at some bigger venue. And perhaps he should, although the naivety displayed in some of his play is telling to most, although Ross himself has yet to discover this overt flaw in his playing style. In short, Ross had considered himself out of the door before the ink had even dried on the Koeman contract, and there’s no doubt at all that Koeman would have had the nod dropped about this one. There’s no point factoring in a resource to any strategy if it’s not an option - a pretty obvious fundamental.

Passion’s a difficult one and depends not only on an individual’s personality but also their culture. In fairness and perhaps in my limited experience, this is not a Dutch characteristic.They seem a fairly laid back bunch on the whole, satired best I believe by Paul Whitehouse and Harry Enfield with their two Dutch Bohemian type cop characters, so here, I reckon we can throw old Koeman a bit of slack.

Compare and contrast this with Nobby Klopp* over the Park who has the stuff in spades. Yes, even I find his enthusiasm attractive at times and would like to see more if it here at Everton. But in the long term, if quiet and unassuming pays dividends, does it really matter? On that note, it was difficult to ignore Klopp’s unusual lack of animation during yesterday’s game with Spurs, in which they were beaten by three goals, leaving them adrift of their coveted top four place in ninth position.

Incidentally, why does BBC news report them merely being beaten by Spurs while we were ‘Overrun’ by Arsenal when we were both beaten by the same goal margin. I see it’s not just S*y that treats us with contempt!

Finally, I believe he does care about our current predicament, even if some of us would prefer to think of it as merely just for his own selfish interest. The red eyes, broken diction and general down at heel demeanour are not the traits of somebody who doesn’t give one. If it’s crocodile tears, then he’s a great actor and should perhaps speak to Bill about a change of career. But I, for one, bought it. His post match interview made for uncomfortable viewing.

*Many at the RS have questioned the wisdom of offering Klopp a six year extension only twelve months into his three year contract.

Erudite response, thank you.

I wasn't singling out the Barkley situation per se, I beleve that is a distraction latched on to by too many supporters.
I reckon a lot of this situation hangs on the identity of Evertonians. We are caught at the moment in a no man's land between our historical identity and the change into modern football, ergo, we don't know who we are or what we want and how to go about it achieving it. Problem being is that time is the greatest luxury of the modern game. The PR influence, sponsors and corporate reality, don't sit well with the older blues because we have experienced being at the top. For the younger ones riding the coattails of that history but belonging to the modern era, it must be very difficult. I've seen trophy after trophy luckily, but also been there against Wimbledon and Coventry and many other low points, which enables me some patience and pragmatism. Never have so few been so dominant in footballand at present we are miles away from that, but were tempted to believe we were heading in the right direction.
I was happy with the early transfers, even Lukaku going, but clarity over the summer strategy woukd buy Koeman grace. Either he was at least partially or wholly responsible, and as manager he bears the brunt, especially from supporters. My issue is, either, he is actually a busted flush because he's lost, or he is being scapegoated by others, Walsh, Kenwright and Moshiri. Either way he has a level of culpability and for things to change you have to start with him.
I don't know how long there is left before we make that change, but we can't be having the same conversations at the end of the year.
 
He should have gone after the Brighton game if we were to salvage something from the season. In fact, he probably should have gone before that game. He won't go now for at least 4 matches. We will lose the next 3, possibly even 4 as Watford are a much stronger team than us at the moment.

A draw or defeat at home to Watford will seal his fate IMO, and give the club some time to sort a replacement during the International break. For me, that is too late as the season is over bar the FA Cup. We'll be out of Europe and the league cup and probably bottom of the Premier.

Bringing in somebody completely new to the club at that stage may actually be a bigger mistake than keeping Koeman. The new manager will want to start from scratch and will take a while to get to know the players and the club. Plus he will likely be looking to undo everything Koeman has put in place, which will put back our recovery at least another season or two. There is therefore an argument that, seeing as the season is already over, Koeman should be given further time to try and turn things around. Apart from fear of relegation (which I personally believe we'll avoid comfortably), we have nothing to lose. In fact I think there's more chance of Koeman turning it around than a new guy having an immediate impact.

Given that we've already missed the boat for this season, I'm now thinking we should be giving Koeman until the end of the year to turn it around. Having already played 5 of the top 6 we do have a much easier set of fixtures so a run of 2 or 3 decent results and performances could get the players confidence back. Also more time for the new players to bed in and for Koeman to find a system that works for these players.

If things aren't much better by Christmas, then I'd sack him and appoint Unsy/Royle until end of the season.

I don't think any of the above will happen by the way. Firmly believe he'll go after the Watford game and we'll look to bring somebody new in during the International break. I'm just not convinced that this would work out any better.
Here's a post I made in another thread which is probably more appropriate in here.

I'm not a supporter of Koeman by the way and long term I don't want him at the club. I just think, having already missed the boat to turn things around in time to affect this season, that replacing Koeman by an outsider now may not be in the best long term interests of the club.
 
Erudite response, thank you.

I wasn't singling out the Barkley situation per se, I beleve that is a distraction latched on to by too many supporters.
I reckon a lot of this situation hangs on the identity of Evertonians. We are caught at the moment in a no man's land between our historical identity and the change into modern football, ergo, we don't know who we are or what we want and how to go about it achieving it. Problem being is that time is the greatest luxury of the modern game. The PR influence, sponsors and corporate reality, don't sit well with the older blues because we have experienced being at the top. For the younger ones riding the coattails of that history but belonging to the modern era, it must be very difficult. I've seen trophy after trophy luckily, but also been there against Wimbledon and Coventry and many other low points, which enables me some patience and pragmatism. Never have so few been so dominant in footballand at present we are miles away from that, but were tempted to believe we were heading in the right direction.
I was happy with the early transfers, even Lukaku going, but clarity over the summer strategy woukd buy Koeman grace. Either he was at least partially or wholly responsible, and as manager he bears the brunt, especially from supporters. My issue is, either, he is actually a busted flush because he's lost, or he is being scapegoated by others, Walsh, Kenwright and Moshiri. Either way he has a level of culpability and for things to change you have to start with him.
I don't know how long there is left before we make that change, but we can't be having the same conversations at the end of the year.

An equally reasoned and proportionate response too, Juan. Very well put.
 
For those still giving Koeman time, where is the line? At what point does it become unacceptable? When should action be taken?

Genuine question.

It's been noted recently in the media that he hasn't endeared himself to the supporters or club generally. This has been from the beginning. The whole '3 year project' thing had me nervous at the start. He hasn't shown any passion for the club, nor his team. A few fiery rants would show he gives a shiny one, but that never comes across, ever, no pride displayed either.
If he showed a bit more 'concern' it would buy him some grace with supporters, but he hasn't, so it won't happen. I think he knows it isn't going to happen hence the complete meh approach that's winding a lot of us up.

This is what I've been wondering too. He doesn't care about EFC, it's a job and in May 2019 he'll be out the door even if we won the UCL. Now I don't have an issue with that as such as long as he doesn't regress/destroy the team/squad in the process.

I think some are hard-wired to think EFC managers need to be building a legacy or have a long term vision but that's out of sync with footy these days. Even if he turns the results around there's been nothing to suggest the football will be anything other than 'efficient' like last season, so lets take the entire decision out of his hands now and get rid before he does any further damage.
 
Only reason for keeping Koeman is the fear of who we get in next. Very much doubt we would even look at Moyes but would hate him back. Koeman to blame for games yet how much do you blame Walsh for summer transfers too?

Think Walsh has stolen a wage to be honest and wouldnt shed a tear if he got the boot as well. Only thing that will maybe save him is the fact that binning him will have no impact on results between now and Jan.
 
This team needs a fresh start, the only way to do that unfortunately is to give Koeman the boot.

Sooner the better as I just can’t see him turning it around.
 
Maybe he will do a job or maybe he will fall on his arse given that hes never managed a senior club, personally would rather we at least stacked the dice a little more in our favour.

Koeman was a gamble, but at least he had some degree of pedigree behind him.

I think Koeman was the complete opposite of a gamble really. A guarantee of best of the rest, or close to it, status.

I knew exactly what we were getting with him. Unsworth wouldnt be my choice fulltime but I prefer the gamble with the chance it might just click and you achieve more than expected.

It fails then fine, you move on.

Even the biggest name linked in Ancelotti brings no guarantee of success....even tho he definitely isnt coming to us.

So, most picks are gambles but Id like the next guy to at least give you the hope he might win something or create something you can really get behind. Unsworth took over and won a few on the bounce then you would start dreaming a little....wouldnt you?

Koeman and other managers like Benitez, Moyes and Allardyce are big NOs to me.....limited and predictable as hell.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar Threads

Welcome

Join the Everton conversation today.
Fewer ads, full access, completely free.

🛒 Visit Shop

Support Grand Old Team by checking out our latest Everton gear!
Back
Top