The Everton Board Thread (Inc. Bill Kenwright / Blue Union)

[BlackToffee]

It's rude to boast.

o

No it isn't

I think

 

[sirblue57]

Well that didn't last very long did it? Why should I bother to give you a long list of successes so that you can belittle them.

Try growing up, this is a big boys forum.

try reading the context properly, i simply stated that the one success you mentioned was the catering, not a really big money spinner. anyway, if you cannot take critisism without spitting your dummy, dont get involved. big boy, whatever.

 

[sirblue57]

Sirblue with an idea, wow. Did your mother give you that one?

And yes, if you want to debate, debate, I'm always open for that. If you want to come on here for petty school boy put downs and abuse, don't start with me.

I don't take prisoners.

and again, big boy?

 

[BlackToffee]

try reading the context properly, i simply stated that the one success you mentioned was the catering, not a really big money spinner. anyway, if you cannot take critisism without spitting your dummy, dont get involved. big boy, whatever.

Tip on conversing with big boys. Try making your explanation clearer as it sounded like a put down. Your explanation above clarifies that so sorry if I offended. I gave Sodexho as an example that you couldn't instantly put down. Wasn't really interested in the money aspect, besides fans who use the service are interested in the quality of the product, and they have been praised on this forum.

Share issues are a bit more complex than it might at first appear, but a positive idea nonetheless.

 

[fozzy]

staying well out of this!!

as i aint got a clue about this thing called grammer and just wish i knew where the spellcheck button is! so dont want to get a roasting over that rather than the point im making!!

but i suppose that makes my opnion invalid and me a thicky anyway!! so i will just go and dribble in the corner again then!

 

[BlackToffee]

staying well out of this!!

as i aint got a clue about this thing called grammer and just wish i knew where the spellcheck button is! so dont want to get a roasting over that rather than the point im making!!

but i suppose that makes my opnion invalid and me a thicky anyway!! so i will just go and dribble in the corner again then!

Fozzy, you know you're well missed. By some of us anyway

 

[sirblue57]

you know,, the thing that really p###ses me off is this "watch your grammar, big boys" crap. its an internet forum ffs. not college or uni exams, i dont have a degree, does that mean i cannot converse with you? i get passionate about things, maybe over react, and the next thing i get a rep. you talk down to people as if your above them , and expect people to respect your opinion. well, no thanks. you keep your opinions, i will not bother replying to your posts . insults i can cope with. but arrogance and a superior attitude, forget it.

 

[SweetJesus849]

There's no supposed about it. They've invested zero money into Everton. Feel free to prove that wrong like.


The analysis from your post - am I reading this right: you feel that, regardless of the absence of tens of millions of £s spending, if Moyes could only show 'ambition' he could be winning trophies and muscling into the top four CL places each season?

I'm not trying to prove or disprove because I don't have a great idea of our finances and what comes in and what comes out and where it goes etc etc, all I know is that we're basically just falling short of breaking even each year, and the vast majority of our income comes from Sky TV, much like every club in the Premier League.

With regards to "ambition" on the pitch, would you play 8 defenders and Victor Anichebe against West Brom? Do you consider that "ambitious"?

I think certain players need a kick up the backside sometimes and I don't think that David Moyes should be totally free of criticism either.

Out of interest would you even consider installing youngsters into the lineup?

 

[neonleon]

you know,, the thing that really p###ses me off is this "watch your grammar, big boys" crap. its an internet forum ffs. not college or uni exams, i dont have a degree, does that mean i cannot converse with you? i get passionate about things, maybe over react, and the next thing i get a rep. you talk down to people as if your above them , and expect people to respect your opinion. well, no thanks. you keep your opinions, i will not bother replying to your posts . insults i can cope with. but arrogance and a superior attitude, forget it.

The majority of criticism you got about grammar related to the letter you sent to the board (or you said you sent).

Yeah, but if you read the admittedly impressive numbers of paragraphs committed to their subject, it's essentially vacuous ****e.

Funny then that you haven't addressed any of the points I've made. Care to refute them rather than just resorting to framing our argument as vacuous sh!te. For example perhaps you could rip apart this post I made earlier.

I'd like to see what a workable business plan would look like, perhaps you could show us an example?

Because I for one can't see somebody spending 120 million on the club (that's a guess at the price of the clu, a further 60 million paying off debts, another 60 million invested in the squad and a further 200 million on a new stadium (conservative estimate) - total 440 million and then paying that off and making a profit out of that whilst continuing to invest in the squad every year.

Somebody could buy it tomorrow for 120 million, with no plans for a stadium and slowly asset strip us though (by selling two or three players a season), not caring where we end up in the league; and before any smart alec answers that's what Kenwright is doing, it palpably isn't. If he was Moyes would've walked many moons ago. We are lucky that Kenwright cares more about the fate of the club than that.

Most current business models for premier league clubs are predicated on corporate facilities and worldwide marketing profiles. We simply aren't a big enough club globally to get the kind of marketing deals that Liverpool, Manchester and Arsenal get. And as for corporate facilities, that's hampered by our old stadium and the reality that most corporate tickets are going to zone in on Anfield in Liverpool. Plus, the relatively small size of the business community in Liverpool compared to London and even Manchester.

Additionally new owners nearly always coincide with a rise in ticket prices across the board to pay for the investment. Judging by the fairly static ticket prices at Goodison I suggest (in combination with the recession) that any further ticket hikes are unsustainable given the disposable income of the average fan - and Everton's position in a economically deprived city.

Anyway how do you suggest an investor in Everton would feasibly make their money back? I'd love to see this workable business model?

 

[sirblue57]

The majority of criticism you got about grammar related to the letter you sent to the board (or you said you sent).



Funny then that you haven't addressed any of the points I've made. Care to refute them rather than just resorting to framing our argument as vacuous sh!te. For example perhaps you could rip apart this post I made earlier.

for the record, the comments about grammar i found amusing, to a point. arguing about context rather than content. black tofees comments came across as "superior" which i find offensive and insulting. it was THESE comments which resulted in my reply.

as for the business plan, its difficult without seeing the books, but maybe a share rights issue, like under PJ would raise capital. maybe giving another investor a chance to join the board without pressure.

 

[neonleon]

for the record, the comments about grammar i found amusing, to a point. arguing about context rather than content. black tofees comments came across as "superior" which i find offensive and insulting. it was THESE comments which resulted in my reply.

as for the business plan, its difficult without seeing the books, but maybe a share rights issue, like under PJ would raise capital. maybe giving another investor a chance to join the board without pressure.

A share rights issue is just the same as asking someone to invest in the club. Either its fans (and the fans can't raise this kind of money) or its investors, the question you have to ask is why invest your money in the club? Fans have an emotional reason but whether you'd get 50k fans putting a grand each in is another unlikely scenario. Investors will want to see return and the only returns are going to come from the current football business model which is as flawed as they come. Ok, if you have a prestigious club, famous throughout the world, in London where you can charge London prices, and a state of the art stadium with corporate facilities.

But an unfashionable club in run down Liverpool, played in a crumbling stadium, dwarfed by the international recognition of its garish and noisy neighbour, with no money to change the circumstances. It's catch 22 my friend.

We need investment to move the club forward.
Without investment the business model doesn't work.
The level of investment necessary outweighs the ability for an investor to get their money back and make a profit over a reasonable time frame and with reasonable risk. In other words Everton as an investment is not a desirable opportunity. If we'd been given a shiny new stadium from the council ala City, that would be a different thing. Alas no.

Until someone can solve the above conundrum or refute my central point (by which I mean, not attacking the current board but telling me how an investor could make his money back at Everton) we should lay off expecting miracles. The board may be fairly useless but they provide stability. This idea that Kenwright knocks back handfuls of billionaires every day who just want to lavish Everton with money is the kind of fairy tale most of us don't believe in anymore.

 

[sirblue57]

A share rights issue is just the same as asking someone to invest in the club. Either its fans (and the fans can't raise this kind of money) or its investors, the question you have to ask is why invest your money in the club? Fans have an emotional reason but whether you'd get 50k fans putting a grand each in is another unlikely scenario. Investors will want to see return and the only returns are going to come from the current football business model which is as flawed as they come. Ok, if you have a prestigious club, famous throughout the world, in London where you can charge London prices, and a state of the art stadium with corporate facilities.

But an unfashionable club in run down Liverpool, played in a crumbling stadium, dwarfed by the international recognition of its garish and noisy neighbour, with no money to change the circumstances. It's catch 22 my friend.

We need investment to move the club forward.
Without investment the business model doesn't work.
The level of investment necessary outweighs the ability for an investor to get their money back and make a profit over a reasonable time frame and with reasonable risk. In other words Everton as an investment is not a desirable opportunity. If we'd been given a shiny new stadium from the council ala City, that would be a different thing. Alas no.

Until someone can solve the above conundrum or refute my central point (by which I mean, not attacking the current board but telling me how an investor could make his money back at Everton) we should lay off expecting miracles. The board may be fairly useless but they provide stability. This idea that Kenwright knocks back handfuls of billionaires every day who just want to lavish Everton with money is the kind of fairy tale most of us don't believe in anymore.

while i agree with SOME of your points. that viewpoint would result in no one investing in clubs, apart from the obvious. yet clubs with less resources than us, HAVE, found investment.

 

[BlackToffee]

for the record, the comments about grammar i found amusing, to a point. arguing about context rather than content. black tofees comments came across as "superior" which i find offensive and insulting. it was THESE comments which resulted in my reply.

as for the business plan, its difficult without seeing the books, but maybe a share rights issue, like under PJ would raise capital. maybe giving another investor a chance to join the board without pressure.

So, in reading my offensive comments, you didn't notice my apology to you?

It appears that you glance my comments so that you can pick out contradictions rather than debate an issue. I answered your question in the best way I could and all I received was a snidey response about catering.

I understand your passion for the issue, I really do, but if you're not going to respond appropriately to answers you've asked for what am I expected to do?

All I'm saying is treat my comments with respect and I will do likewise.

With respect to the Share issue, I fully agree with Neon, but the issue is very complicated. For example, a share issue revalues the company, so while BK's share holding in percentage terms might drop, if he was to sell, his profit on sale might actually be more than if he hadn't made the share issue in the first place because the club would now be worth more.

while i agree with SOME of your points. that viewpoint would result in no one investing in clubs, apart from the obvious. yet clubs with less resources than us, HAVE, investment.

The key to this conundrum is simple. Goodison Park. Investors rarely build new grounds, it ties up too much capital. They might extend an existing ground, like Newcastle, but I don't know of any new investor who has also built a new stadia. Why do you think the RS are abandoning the Stanley Park project?

 

[sirblue57]

So, in reading my offensive comments, you didn't notice my apology to you?

It appears that you glance my comments so that you can pick out contradictions rather than debate an issue. I answered your question in the best way I could and all I received was a snidey response about catering.

I understand your passion for the issue, I really do, but if you're not going to respond appropriately to answers you've asked for what am I expected to do?

All I'm saying is treat my comments with respect and I will do likewise.

With respect to the Share issue, I fully agree with Neon, but the issue is very complicated. For example, a share issue revalues the company, so while BK's share holding in percentage terms might drop, if he was to sell, his profit on sale might actually be more than if he hadn't made the share issue in the first place because the club would now be worth more.

Tip on conversing with big boys. Try making your explanation clearer as it sounded like a put down. Your explanation above clarifies that so sorry if I offended. I gave Sodexho as an example that you couldn't instantly put down. Wasn't really interested in the money aspect, besides fans who use the service are interested in the quality of the product, and they have been praised on this forum.

Share issues are a bit more complex than it might at first appear, but a positive idea nonetheless.

Read more: http://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/t...verton-Board-quot-Thread/page70#ixzz1NRxLlwzB

as someone who has been critisised for my grammar, i think the way the apology was put, was dubious, dont you?

 

[BlackToffee]

Tip on conversing with big boys. Try making your explanation clearer as it sounded like a put down. Your explanation above clarifies that so sorry if I offended. I gave Sodexho as an example that you couldn't instantly put down. Wasn't really interested in the money aspect, besides fans who use the service are interested in the quality of the product, and they have been praised on this forum.

Share issues are a bit more complex than it might at first appear, but a positive idea nonetheless.

Read more: http://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/t...verton-Board-quot-Thread/page70#ixzz1NRxLlwzB

as someone who has been critisised for my grammar, i think the way the apology was put, was dubious, dont you?

Actually, I think its for you to point out exactly where the grammar is dubious, don't you?

Anyway, good luck with that.