Current Affairs the Centre is...

[dholliday]

Hiya centrist Dave you are back in vogue, apparently!

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underrated pm

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

underrated pm

It was a centrist masterstroke in bringing a referendum to the country. The ongoing ramifications have been very spectacular. Dave and his legacy referendum and Tony legacy was words from God via American president for war. The modern forefathers of the centre.

 

[dholliday]

It was a centrist masterstroke in bringing a referendum to the country. The ongoing ramifications have been very spectacular. Dave and his legacy referendum and Tony legacy was words from God via American president for war. The modern forefathers of the centre.

He only did what the people wanted, folk have been crying out for a public vote on EU-membership for years, he promised one despite being a Remainer himself, he delivered one. The result didn't go his way so he honorably resigned.

Classic centrism: see two almost equal sides and offer them a fair solution. What we didn't quite realise at the time was how incandescent the losing side would react. It's this reaction that has been the cause of a lot of stress post-referendum.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

He only did what the people wanted, folk have been crying out for a public vote on EU-membership for years, he promised one despite being a Remainer himself, he delivered one. The result didn't go his way so he honorably resigned.

So he is populist now. The people folk, I guess you mean UKiP, they could not even gain a MP in an election, they required sitting Tory MP defectors to have a representation.

 

[dholliday]

So he is populist now. The people folk, I guess you mean UKiP, they could not even gain a MP in an election, they required sitting Tory MP defectors to have a representation.

no, actual folk...real people. There's quite a lot of them (17.4 million adult voters), most of whom aren't ukip supporters neither do they care much what Boris, Nigel et al had to say (including the fabled Red Bus...hardly anyone who voted Brexit cared much for what that bus had to say either...they had already made up their own minds).

As there were 16.1 million adult voters who felt otherwise, calling a public referendum was, in hindsight, a centrist act, not a populist one.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

no, actual folk...real people. There's quite a lot of them (17.4 million adult voters), most of whom aren't ukip supporters neither do they care much what Boris, Nigel et al had to say (including the fabled Red Bus...hardly anyone who voted Brexit cared much for what that bus had to say either...they had already made up their own minds).

As there were 16.1 million adult voters who felt otherwise, calling a public referendum was, in hindsight, a centrist act, not a populist one.

Putting your terminology aside, call me Dave, populist or centrist? Because he talks centrist but acts populist with your take on referendum.

 

[dholliday]

Putting your terminology aside, call me Dave, populist or centrist? Because he talks centrist but acts populist with your take on referendum.

I thought we were putting terminology aside? If he was populist he would in this case have been a Brexiter himself and/or he would've wanted to continue his job as PM. A populist is two things:

- someone who appeals to the masses who feel their concerns aren't being given attention to by mainstream politics.
- who then uses this appeal to better his chances of winning or staying in office.

Cameron would be a unique populist in this case as he gave up his job upon losing (from his perspective) the referendum. As such he's not one, he's a classic centrist. It's not Cameron the 48% should be mad at, neither is it Boris/Nigel/bus...it's the 52% who voted the other way. And as it happens they are mad at the 52%, to the point where some families have broken up. I know one mate, in a perma fit of pique, refuses to speak to his brother because he voted Brexit, despite his brother offering to calmly explain his thinking.

Looking at the poll, I would guess the 12 lads who voted centrism being a cowardly enabler of bad things are Remainers. The idea of centrism is to create a fair compromise, or where a 50/50 decision has to be made: to create a fair fight. Like the old gentleman's rules for duelling, if you like.

If a losing dueller cries foul because he didn't like losing it often tainted his reputation.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

The problem comes when what is perceived as centrist/left/right gets out of whack.

Look at a couple of the policies that are being described as "socialist" in the US at the moment...

Healthcare of everyone, regardless of their economic status
Higher taxation on the very most wealthy
Measures to curtail humans' damage to the planet we all have to live on.

All these ideas have somewhere over 60% approval amongst the general public and are clearly beneficial and/or desirable to a society. The last of the 3 has the support of 95%+ of the scientific community as being of the utmost importance.

In any truly balanced political culture, these would all be centrist positions with a broad base of support both inside and outside the political classes...

Instead they and their supporters are being demagogued as "far left", "socialist" and even "communist".

There's nothing wrong with the theory of being a centrist - in fact it's perhaps even desirable in theory, but the recent shift in politics has meant that those espousing truly centrist positions are described (most often) as far left, since politics has shifted so far right in the last 10-15 years.

 

[dholliday]

The problem comes when what is perceived as centrist/left/right gets out of whack.

Look at a couple of the policies that are being described as "socialist" in the US at the moment...

Healthcare of everyone, regardless of their economic status
Higher taxation on the very most wealthy
Measures to curtail humans' damage to the planet we all have to live on.

All these ideas have somewhere over 60% approval amongst the general public and are clearly beneficial and/or desirable to a society. The last of the 3 has the support of 95%+ of the scientific community as being of the utmost importance.

In any truly balanced political culture, these would all be centrist positions with a broad base of support both inside and outside the political classes...

Instead they and their supporters are being demagogued as "far left", "socialist" and even "communist".

There's nothing wrong with the theory of being a centrist - in fact it's perhaps even desirable in theory, but the recent shift in politics has meant that those espousing truly centrist positions are described (most often) as far left, since politics has shifted so far right in the last 10-15 years.

Interesting post, BB. This bit especially:

the recent shift in politics has meant that those espousing truly centrist positions are described (most often) as far left, since politics has shifted so far right in the last 10-15 years.

The idea of my OP (and subsequently proven by some of the comments in this thread) is that centrism is being accused of being a mask for the far right, not the far left. As it happens I support all 3 of your policy examples, so to the right-wing I'm then considered Far Left. However in this thread I'm considered right-wing by some as I've supported the right of the public to have important referendums, admonished the incessantly anti-Trump media and raised concerns about ultra-conservative religions' renewed influence in Europe due to mass immigration.

That is the centrists' lot: depending on what he thinks and who he tells it to he will get all sorts of labels thrown at him. And as you say it's this constant labelling that's part of the problem. In USA 'socialist' is almost as dirty a word as 'communist'. And I suspect 'centrist' is becoming a dirty one too. And what begins in USA invariably follows on to Europe.

Name-calling is textbook debate-shutdown tactics. The last recourse of the sore loser of the duel. In history, when it wasn't about land, this is often how things got out of hand and wars started. My lady often says of these things that folk need conflict, and as there isn't really any nowadays, they invent it.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

Interesting post, BB. This bit especially:


The idea of my OP (and subsequently proven by some of the comments in this thread) is that centrism is being accused of being a mask for the far right, not the far left. As it happens I support all 3 of your policy examples, so to the right-wing I'm then considered Far Left. However in this thread I'm considered right-wing by some as I've supported the right of the public to have important referendums, admonished the incessantly anti-Trump media and raised concerns about ultra-conservative religions' renewed influence in Europe due to mass immigration.

I think we can leave the Trump issue alone in this thread, there's at least two others where it can be (and has been) discussed at length. The only comment I'll make is that it isn't "anti-Trump" to report what he does and says. If he wants better press, he should probably do and say better things!

Regarding immigration, once again we have a problem of perspective and name-calling. Most on (what is considered) the left think there should be common sense immigration laws in place and upheld (hardly a far left position?). But look (again) at the US situation. Those on the right claim that the democrats are for "open borders" and "unchecked immigration", which simply isn't true, but helps to rile up a significant portion of their base.

Personally I believe the biggest problem is that the "mainstream" right wing is far more to the right than the mainstream left wing is to the left (not the best constructed sentence I've ever written, but hopefully you get the point). It's been an issue since the early 90's to be fair, but has certainly worsened over the last decade or so. Look at this country for an example. The likes of Farage, with some of the messaging and imagery he and those around him have used... there simply isn't anyone in any position of influence who is as far to the left as he is to the right. Even Corbyn, (who I'm no great fan of) who gets all sorts of "socialist" and "commie" barbs thrown at him... when was the last time you saw him pushing a radical (or even approaching radical) left wing agenda? Most of what he says is barely to the left of Blair's govt, which careened towards the centre and away from traditional labour values, to oust the Tories in the mid-late 90's.

The Left (both here and in the US) has sadly given up the debating ground and moved further and further towards what would have traditionally been called the Centre over the last 10 or so years, and it's led what would have traditionally been called centre-right or even Right (depending on the issue) now being considered Centrist.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

And while I really don't want to name-call, there is a rather prevalent brand of self-described "Centrist" who absolutely loves the "oh, both sides are as bad as each other" refrain - a refrain which simply isn't backed up by any form of reality in our CURRENT political climate. Not to say it has always, or will always be the case, but right at this moment, one side is causing far more problems than the other, and it isn't even a particularly close run thing.

 

[dholliday]

I think we can leave the Trump issue alone in this thread, there's at least two others where it can be (and has been) discussed at length. The only comment I'll make is that it isn't "anti-Trump" to report what he does and says. If he wants better press, he should probably do and say better things!

Regarding immigration, once again we have a problem of perspective and name-calling. Most on (what is considered) the left think there should be common sense immigration laws in place and upheld (hardly a far left position?). But look (again) at the US situation. Those on the right claim that the democrats are for "open borders" and "unchecked immigration", which simply isn't true, but helps to rile up a significant portion of their base.

Personally I believe the biggest problem is that the "mainstream" right wing is far more to the right than the mainstream left wing is to the left (not the best constructed sentence I've ever written, but hopefully you get the point). It's been an issue since the early 90's to be fair, but has certainly worsened over the last decade or so. Look at this country for an example. The likes of Farage, with some of the messaging and imagery he and those around him have used... there simply isn't anyone in any position of influence who is as far to the left as he is to the right. Even Corbyn, (who I'm no great fan of) who gets all sorts of "socialist" and "commie" barbs thrown at him... when was the last time you saw him pushing a radical (or even approaching radical) left wing agenda? Most of what he says is barely to the left of Blair's govt, which careened towards the centre and away from traditional labour values, to oust the Tories in the mid-late 90's.

The Left (both here and in the US) has sadly given up the debating ground and moved further and further towards what would have traditionally been called the Centre over the last 10 or so years, and it's led what would have traditionally been called centre-right or even Right (depending on the issue) now being considered Centrist.

Quick one on Trump: i had to self-ban myself from the Trump thread as i kept getting reported to the mods as a bad nazi troll, a mod eventually gave me an unofficial warning so i decided life's too short to argue with fellow blues about a non-entity like an american president. That is an example of the Left shutting down centrist opinion.

I disagree it's significant that Farage is a visible far-right figure (is he even far-right?). I'd say it's more significant how much far-leftism like identity-politics/outrage-culture is pushed in the media (including from the chattering classes on social media). The latest example being mixing up the terms "coloured" and "people of colour" in a comment which was sympathetic towards Diane Abbot (thus creating conflict where there is none). Far-rightism has also had its identity-politics/outrage-culture but this hasn't been so readily accepted or pushed in mainstream media.

Regarding open borders, the conservatives/republicans/centrists/classic-liberals/whoever have a point that open borders is being argued for from the Left mainstream (The Guardian is one of the most widely-read left-leaning news/opinion sites in the world and Gary Younge's pieces are defacto editorials, more than 2 years later this piece is still highlighted on their main Opinion page...it's blatantly an agenda being pushed):

End all immigration controls – they’re a sign we value money more than people

Perfect utopic idealism: totally unworkable. See the Guardian-highlighted reader comments, they support the premise. See all other 999 comments, sorting via most-recommended from fellow readers, and you'll see an overwhelming consensus that open borders is unworkable, and if it was forced, society would fall apart.

Now that overwhelming majority of left-leaning Guardian readers: are they actually Russian trolls? Right-wing Telegraph invaders? Even worse, are they centrists enabling the horrific anti-human policies of the Far Right?

So i disagree that it's the Right that's the problem. We had them relatively under control, out on the fringes, but a big branch of us on the Left pushed our luck too far and now the pendulum is swinging back to the classic centre. A centre which is being demonised. This pushes the pendulum even further Right, to the point where good potential national leaders like Corbyn & Sanders will lose votes.

 

[dholliday]

Another example of how the Far Left's obsession with identity-politics has lost the centre (and conversely means we lose a potential good national leader) can be found within the same person - namely in USA with Elizabeth Warren. A fine presidential candidate with good workable ideas let down by her bizarre determination to prove she has a fraction of Native American blood in her, which in her feverish eyes means she's a Human+ or something. Now there's no chance she'll beat Trump in 2020 as centered voters have been put off.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

Quick one on Trump: i had to self-ban myself from the Trump thread as i kept getting reported to the mods as a bad nazi troll, a mod eventually gave me an unofficial warning so i decided life's too short to argue with fellow blues about a non-entity like an american president. That is an example of the Left shutting down centrist opinion.

I disagree it's significant that Farage is a visible far-right figure (is he even far-right?). I'd say it's more significant how much far-leftism like identity-politics/outrage-culture is pushed in the media (including from the chattering classes on social media). The latest example being mixing up the terms "coloured" and "people of colour" in a comment which was sympathetic towards Diane Abbot (thus creating conflict where there is none). Far-rightism has also had its identity-politics/outrage-culture but this hasn't been so readily accepted or pushed in mainstream media.

Regarding open borders, the conservatives/republicans/centrists/classic-liberals/whoever have a point that open borders is being argued for from the Left mainstream (The Guardian is one of the most widely-read left-leaning news/opinion sites in the world and Gary Younge's pieces are defacto editorials, more than 2 years later this piece is still highlighted on their main Opinion page...it's blatantly an agenda being pushed):

End all immigration controls – they’re a sign we value money more than people

Perfect utopic idealism: totally unworkable. See the Guardian-highlighted reader comments, they support the premise. See all other 999 comments, sorting via most-recommended from fellow readers, and you'll see an overwhelming consensus that open borders is unworkable, and if it was forced, society would fall apart.

Now that overwhelming majority of left-leaning Guardian readers: are they actually Russian trolls? Right-wing Telegraph invaders? Even worse, are they centrists enabling the horrific anti-human policies of the Far Right?

So i disagree that it's the Right that's the problem. We had them relatively under control, out on the fringes, but a big branch of us on the Left pushed our luck too far and now the pendulum is swinging back to the classic centre. A centre which is being demonised. This pushes the pendulum even further Right, to the point where good potential national leaders like Corbyn & Sanders will lose votes.

It’s interesting how you consider yourself “centrist” (I’m sure many would disagree, but I’ll leave that for another time), yet seem to spend 99% of your time criticising the left (or those you perceive to be on the left), and really very little on criticising the right.

And yeah, I don’t doubt that there’s the occasional person espousing “down with all immigration controls!” - but no one serious and certainly no one in a position of political power. I dare say if I trawled the internet (read: spend 10 seconds googling) I could find one or two or two hundred thpusand rather reprehensible right wing opinion pieces out there.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

Christ, Obama got called a socialist and a communist by the Right, and he wasn’t even moderately far left. He was about a quarter of an inch left of centre, if that.