Current Affairs The " another shooting in America " thread

[Wizard]

I've just been reading about two recent cases that are quite similar to the George Floyd killing. I will link articles about both and there are videos of both situations that people should be wary of watching as they are very distressing. But they are long videos that show the whole situation which I think is important to see if you can manage it.

The case of Angel Hernandez is especially interesting to me as I was sat outside the other day in London and there was a guy who was way more "troubling" than him. He was clearly having a breakdown or was heavily under the influence of something. He smashed 2 car wing mirrors, tried to break through a glass door, and did eventually smash a (small) shop window. The police turned up, gave him his space while they assessed the situation and asked us what had happened and then took him away.

Then you look at these two situations. Neither of which were driven by the police having fear of their lives. But in both situations someone has ended up dead. This is why people call for defunding the police. Not because they want the police to disappear. But because in situations like these, mental health experts would have almost certainly saved 2 lives. And also saved the officers from the trauma they will be going through.

Months before George Floyd, Angel Hernandez died at a downtown train station with a knee to his neck, too

For weeks during the pandemic spring and summer of 2020, thousands of San Diego residents took to the streets around the county, protesting racial injustice and police misconduct in the wake of the May 25 killing of George Floyd at the…

www.sandiegouniontribune.com

 

[Bishop Thumpety-Thump]

Well if he tried to flee, I'm sure Tubey will be here to explain the causal chain of events that led to this unarmed black man being gunned to bits by a group of armed police, and how one thing led to another. I fear America will descend into chaos otherwise

Followed by a post explaining how transgender folk REALLY feel for all us ignoramuses.

 

[Sassy Colombian]

I've just been reading about two recent cases that are quite similar to the George Floyd killing. I will link articles about both and there are videos of both situations that people should be wary of watching as they are very distressing. But they are long videos that show the whole situation which I think is important to see if you can manage it.

The case of Angel Hernandez is especially interesting to me as I was sat outside the other day in London and there was a guy who was way more "troubling" than him. He was clearly having a breakdown or was heavily under the influence of something. He smashed 2 car wing mirrors, tried to break through a glass door, and did eventually smash a (small) shop window. The police turned up, gave him his space while they assessed the situation and asked us what had happened and then took him away.

Then you look at these two situations. Neither of which were driven by the police having fear of their lives. But in both situations someone has ended up dead. This is why people call for defunding the police. Not because they want the police to disappear. But because in situations like these, mental health experts would have almost certainly saved 2 lives. And also saved the officers from the trauma they will be going through.

Months before George Floyd, Angel Hernandez died at a downtown train station with a knee to his neck, too

For weeks during the pandemic spring and summer of 2020, thousands of San Diego residents took to the streets around the county, protesting racial injustice and police misconduct in the wake of the May 25 killing of George Floyd at the…

www.sandiegouniontribune.com

I totally understand why people are calling for the defunding and restructuring of police departments when unnecessary killings continue happening all over the US.

Here is another case, not sure if it is one of those you were discussing, where unnecessary force was used by the police department in San Francisco. Mario Gonzalez was impaired and having a mental episode but didn't seem to be a threat to the officers. But they still pinned him to the ground for several minutes and just like George Floyd he loses consciousness and dies even as they try to perform CPR on him. How many more killings because of excessive force have to happen before things change

 

[LinekersLegs]

Very sad

 

[PhilM]

I've just been reading about two recent cases that are quite similar to the George Floyd killing. I will link articles about both and there are videos of both situations that people should be wary of watching as they are very distressing. But they are long videos that show the whole situation which I think is important to see if you can manage it.

The case of Angel Hernandez is especially interesting to me as I was sat outside the other day in London and there was a guy who was way more "troubling" than him. He was clearly having a breakdown or was heavily under the influence of something. He smashed 2 car wing mirrors, tried to break through a glass door, and did eventually smash a (small) shop window. The police turned up, gave him his space while they assessed the situation and asked us what had happened and then took him away.

Then you look at these two situations. Neither of which were driven by the police having fear of their lives. But in both situations someone has ended up dead. This is why people call for defunding the police. Not because they want the police to disappear. But because in situations like these, mental health experts would have almost certainly saved 2 lives. And also saved the officers from the trauma they will be going through.

Months before George Floyd, Angel Hernandez died at a downtown train station with a knee to his neck, too

For weeks during the pandemic spring and summer of 2020, thousands of San Diego residents took to the streets around the county, protesting racial injustice and police misconduct in the wake of the May 25 killing of George Floyd at the…

www.sandiegouniontribune.com

I agree with everything you say in your post and their response appears perfect, however did the person in any way forcibly resit their actions or being detained?

Here lies the aspect that many ignore or do not understand, and the aspect that complicates a situation that many see as binary: black or white; right or wrong.

The use of force is not required specifically due to a threat of life or harm, but approrpaite force is allowed to detain an individual if the circumstances allow it.

In the United Kingdom, this can come under a few statutes but one specific one is a Sec. 136 under the MHA. Is there an Federal or State alternative in the US?

And that's where @Sassy Colombian's post come ins to play because I do not see the incident with Mario Gonzalez as black and white - there's nuance.

Tragically, a person has died through a confrontation with the police and it should (and hopefully will) be thoroughly investigated to see if there was wrong doing.

But, perhaps as the Devil's Advocate, they tried to detain him and he to some extent resisted. Genuinely, what should officers do if a person does not comply?

When on the floor, they were calm and arguably showed compassion. Arguably, they were clear with their concern about his welfare and were not violent.

So to my point, on the binary scale it's excessive because a person has died, but on the other side were their actions warranted and appropriate?

That'll be for prosecutors to decide when all the evidence, including the autopsy, are in. Personally, right now, I don't think it's a clear cut call as 'a murder'.

 

[Sassy Colombian]

I agree with everything you say in your post and their response appears perfect, however did the person in any way forcibly resit their actions or being detained?

Here lies the aspect that many ignore or do not understand, and the aspect that complicates a situation that many see as binary: black or white; right or wrong.

The use of force is not required specifically due to a threat of life or harm, but approrpaite force is allowed to detain an individual if the circumstances allow it.

In the United Kingdom, this can come under a few statutes but one specific one is a Sec. 136 under the MHA. Is there an Federal or State alternative in the US?

And that's where @Sassy Colombian's post come ins to play because I do not see the incident with Mario Gonzalez as black and white - there's nuance.

Tragically, a person has died through a confrontation with the police and it should (and hopefully will) be thoroughly investigated to see if there was wrong doing.

But, perhaps as the Devil's Advocate, they tried to detain him and he to some extent resisted. Genuinely, what should officers do if a person does not comply?

When on the floor, they were calm and arguably showed compassion. Arguably, they were clear with their concern about his welfare and were not violent.

So to my point, on the binary scale it's excessive because a person has died, but on the other side were their actions warranted and appropriate?

That'll be for prosecutors to decide when all the evidence, including the autopsy, are in. Personally, right now, I don't think it's a clear cut call as 'a murder'.

The issue with Mario Gonzales is that there was no need for that confrontation with the police. The guy didn’t seem to have done anything wrong to have been arrested. For what I have read and listened on NPR, He was at a park, not wearing a mask, talking to himself and combing his hair, someone called the police on him and when arrested and I quote the Police Chief “Gonzalez does not appear to be violent or abusive" before officers move to arrest him. The guy may have been a little tipsy or having a mental episode but he wasn’t being a threat to anyone, he wasn’t armed and the police didn’t even seem to tell him why he was getting arrested anyway. So sure maybe there was struggle about resisting arrest when you are doing nothing wrong and are not told why you are getting arrested. This seems once again a case where police used excessive force based on a minimal “crime” if there was actually any at all. Just like Floyd these police officers should have not killed this man and while maybe their intention wasn’t to murder him, there was no reason for him to have gotten arrested in the first place that was the police first mistake and now an innocent man is dead.

 

[PhilM]

The issue with Mario Gonzales is that there was no need for that confrontation with the police. The guy didn’t seem to have done anything wrong to have been arrested. For what I have read and listened on NPR, He was at a park, not wearing a mask, talking to himself and combing his hair, someone called the police on him and when arrested and I quote the Police Chief “Gonzalez does not appear to be violent or abusive" before officers move to arrest him. The guy may have been a little tipsy or having a mental episode but he wasn’t being a threat to anyone, he wasn’t armed and the police didn’t even seem to tell him why he was getting arrested anyway. So sure maybe there was struggle about resisting arrest when you are doing nothing wrong and are not told why you are getting arrested. This seems once again a case where police used excessive force based on a minimal “crime” if there was actually any at all. Just like Floyd these police officers should have not killed this man and while maybe their intention wasn’t to murder him, there was no reason for him to have gotten arrested in the first place that was the police first mistake and now an innocent man is dead.

That might all be true, however with a brief Google it always states...

“One man says Mr. Gonzalez has been loitering for about a half-hour and appears to be breaking store security tags off alcohol bottles.”

Would that not warrant the police responding if there was a suspected crime? With concerns about his mental well-being, would that not possibly warrant being detained?

My point is that being violent is not a pre-requisite for being detained. Suspicion of an offence or in order to fulfil of any obligation prescribed by law are.

The law of physics are clear that unless someone obliges force is required to detain someone - more than they exert. To not use force would be Catch22.

If they’ve done wrong, throw the book at them. My concern is only that people are making assumptions before the facts are clear.

 

[LinekersLegs]

7 dead, including gunman, in shooting at birthday party in Colorado Springs

The gunman, believed to be a boyfriend of a victim, carried out the shooting at a birthday party where family and children gathered to celebrate.

abc7.com

 

[4737carlin]

Russia school shooting: Seven children and a teacher killed in attack in Kazan

A blast was heard at the school in the city of Kazan and a teenage gunman has been detained.

news.sky.com

 

[Terrarian]

Guns eh, bad juju man, why can't people see that by owning a gun the chances for killing are exponentially higher. Especially if you start experiencing mental health problems.

 

[LinekersLegs]

 

[LinekersLegs]

 

[carolinablue232]

Saw a similar story on the news last night about a 3 year old girl in Florida being shot in a drive by while leaving a birthday party a couple months back. No one has shared anything with police yet so the family went on tv pleading with the community to speak up. Truly depressing stuff.

 

[PhilM]

Saw a similar story on the news last night about a 3 year old girl in Florida being shot in a drive by while leaving a birthday party a couple months back. No one has shared anything with police yet so the family went on tv pleading with the community to speak up. Truly depressing stuff.

Perversely, the fear of being labelled 'a grass' is worse in those communities than a person shooting and murdering a child.

 

[PhilM]

Tighter laws needed? Hold my hat... here comes Texas.

Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

A bill which further eases some of the loosest gun laws in the US is set to be approved.

www.bbc.co.uk