Current Affairs The " another shooting in America " thread

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Pettifogger said:
Is the fear of a ban on all guns in the US irrational? Probably, I agree. But that's about the extent of it. You acknowledge some restrictions will lead to more restrictions until we're satisfied the problem is remedied. My belief, based on pretty sound reasoning, I think, is that the problem won't be remedied, if at all, until we get to the point of severe handgun limitations/bans/confiscations.
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And that's irrational nonsense, because to use a common phrase, 'the cat is out of the bag'. You can't do a total blanket ban as they are simply too common - it'd be like prohibiting alcohol, it simply wouldn't work.

Instead, it'll be to the point you solve the issues that your society has with them to your own cultural level. I'm not saying 'Be Britain'; I'm saying allow yourselves to shape your own destiny.

What you have right now is a powerful gun lobby hiding behind an outmoded amendment that has no relevance to the modern world, meaning an issue is impacting your culture and you have no power to react as a society to it. It's the same as refusing to outlaw slavery because someone wrote down that it was fine 200 years ago - you have to be able to react as a modern country to the realities of the day.
 
This might be an interesting read for you @Pettifogger - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42749089

Think of that in terms of the US gun culture. Yes, we have knife crime on the rise in the UK. That may lead to more stop and search techniques in high risk areas, or stricter terms on sale to people below a certain age if certain age groups are more prone to committing the crime.

But you see, if those measures happen, we're not mental enough to think that equates to "OH THEY'RE GOING TO TAKE AWAY ALL OUR KNIVES - WHAT WILL I USE TO CUT MY STEAK WITH?"

That's why the world laughs at and is horrified at the US over gun control in equal measure. Would it really be the end of the world if you had to, say, be over the age of 25 to buy a handgun or something? Really?
 
Tubey said:
And that's irrational nonsense, because to use a common phrase, 'the cat is out of the bag'. You can't do a total blanket ban as they are simply too common - it'd be like prohibiting alcohol, it simply wouldn't work.

Instead, it'll be to the point you solve the issues that your society has with them to your own cultural level. I'm not saying 'Be Britain'; I'm saying allow yourselves to shape your own destiny.

What you have right now is a powerful gun lobby hiding behind an outmoded amendment that has no relevance to the modern world, meaning an issue is impacting your culture and you have no power to react as a society to it. It's the same as refusing to outlaw slavery because someone wrote down that it was fine 200 years ago - you have to be able to react as a modern country to the realities of the day.
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It's not irrational at all. You already acknowledge regulation will begat more regulation. And in my view, the regulations you say we can do (everything leading up to gun bans) aren't going to significantly decrease gun violence. So...sell me on why I'm to buy into regulation that you admit will bring more regulation (because the initial round didn't go far enough), when I'm pretty unconvinced said regulation will be meaningful anyway?

As for your comments about the 2A, sorry, but it isn't the NRA convincing America that it's sacrosanct. And it's definitely not "the same" as refusing to outlaw slavery, although I suspect you're just talking about the temporal aspect, not some comparison of the underlying issues (I hope).
 
Lets face it, when a nation maintains gun ownership as a "right", there might be sommet a bit unhinged in the national pysche.
 
Pettifogger said:
It's not irrational at all. You already acknowledge regulation will begat more regulation. And in my view, the regulations you say we can do (everything leading up to gun bans) aren't going to significantly decrease gun violence. So...sell me on why I'm to buy into regulation that you admit will bring more regulation (because the initial round didn't go far enough), when I'm pretty unconvinced said regulation will be meaningful anyway?

As for your comments about the 2A, sorry, but it isn't the NRA convincing America that it's sacrosanct. And it's definitely not "the same" as refusing to outlaw slavery, although I suspect you're just talking about the temporal aspect, not some comparison of the underlying issues (I hope).
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I was talking in terms of the literal - in that slavery was "OK" for a long time until emancipation, because the realities and concerns of the day were acted upon and they didn't stick to the status quo because "that's how it is".

As for why you should buy into regulation... you do it piecemeal so you see what works and what doesn't. Think about what you are saying - you are against a blanket ban, but you are also against testing out restrictions and applying more when needed and taking away those that don't work when they are not needed.

So your stance seems to be "do nothing" - and sorry but I find that just... weird. Creepy even. You're seeing on average a school shooting once every three days and the response is to shrug it off? Or is it the laughable "we need more guns" solution you subscribe to?!
 
Tubey said:
This might be an interesting read for you @Pettifogger - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42749089

That's why the world laughs at and is horrified at the US over gun control in equal measure. Would it really be the end of the world if you had to, say, be over the age of 25 to buy a handgun or something? Really?
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You have to understand, and I don't mean this pejoratively, that a huge swath of the United States doesn't care about the world's opinion on this. The US is arguably the most influential country in the world. I'd love to have a wide ranging discussion about the world's view of America and why Americans tend to not care (and America's view of Europe, etc.), but I think that is getting way off topic.

Would it be the end of the world if you had to be 25? No, of course not. But you're selling me on a new law that will be followed by law abiding people but won't be followed by criminals. Shockingly, criminals enter gun free zones against the law. They murder people, against the law. They steal guns. They buy them illegally.

You made the somewhat valid point that volume of guns contributes to the issue. Why am I going to sign on, then, to an age restriction that fails to make a dent in the issue of volume? The juveniles with guns in my city, they're going to be deterred because they're 17? They commit crimes with guns they possess illegally now!
 
Pettifogger said:
You have to understand, and I don't mean this pejoratively, that a huge swath of the United States doesn't care about the world's opinion on this. The US is arguably the most influential country in the world. I'd love to have a wide ranging discussion about the world's view of America and why Americans tend to not care (and America's view of Europe, etc.), but I think that is getting way off topic.
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What's this, any of it, got to do with anything I just said?
 
Tubey said:
I was talking in terms of the literal - in that slavery was "OK" for a long time until emancipation, because the realities and concerns of the day were acted upon and they didn't stick to the status quo because "that's how it is".

As for why you should buy into regulation... you do it piecemeal so you see what works and what doesn't. Think about what you are saying - you are against a blanket ban, but you are also against testing out restrictions and applying more when needed and taking away those that don't work when they are not needed.

So your stance seems to be "do nothing" - and sorry but I find that just... weird. Creepy even. You're seeing on average a school shooting once every three days and the response is to shrug it off? Or is it the laughable "we need more guns" solution you subscribe to?!
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That's what I expected re: slavery. I think it's an inapt comparison, however.

As for your second paragraph, you've got me pegged. Yes, I'm against experimentation via restrictions on individual rights. It may be a cultural gap, and one I doubt we can bridge.

I've already stated in this very thread (today) that I'm not an "arm everyone" person, so no need to make that accusation. I'm not particularly creative. So for the time being, at least on the age limits/mag restrictions/gun type restrictions side of the question, I am probably in the "do nothing" camp. Mental health and background checks and things like that I'm certainly willing to explore. For the record, I think it's silly to use school shooting statistics that include violent crime adjacent to campuses, negligent discharges with no injuries and suicides in this discussion.
 
Tubey said:
What's this, any of it, got to do with anything I just said?
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You: The world laughs at you because you ______

Me: America doesn't care.

In other words, if you're trying to convince us that we should do something by saying other countries scoff at us, I don't find it compelling, nor do I think the people you'd want to convince would find it so.
 
Pettifogger said:
You: The world laughs at you because you ______

Me: America doesn't care.

In other words, if you're trying to convince us that we should do something by saying other countries scoff at us, I don't find it compelling, nor do I think the people you'd want to convince would find it so.
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What is the base root of gun possession in the US? Is it because you can, they're enchanting to some, defence, what exactly?

I don't get the desire, and, to some, need, to own a gun.
 
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