The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

[Blue 1]

I agree with you to an extent - new labour were not the left-leaning Labour of previous years. But that was because they positioned themselves to win the centre-left, centre and centre-right vote, isolating the Tories with a dwindling traditional right support. I don't think they've idealogically moved further to the right than that, although in certain economic matters they have gone quite some distance further to the right to the same point as the Tories. I can't see how overall Labour can be seen as being to the right of the Tories - if so, why wouldn't they be hemorrhaging votes?

I don't think anyone has made the claim that overall they're to the right of the Tories, though, have they? Just that they occupy a right-of-centre position nowadays.

Looking forward to that pint this evening though, I tell ya!

 

[Tree13]

I don't think anyone has made the claim that overall they're to the right of the Tories, though, have they? Just that they occupy a right-of-centre position nowadays.

Looking forward to that pint this evening though, I tell ya!

One poster has. I quoted him on it. He's denying it now though.

What's the betting we'd disagree about the pint too? LOL!

 

[Blue 1]

One poster has. I quoted him on it. He's denying it now though.

What's the betting we'd disagree about the pint too? LOL!

Aye most probably :-D

 

[Bruce Wayne]

 

[davek]

You said the Labour party has been a party of the political right since the early 90's. I quoted you mate.

Yes, I did...which isn't what you originally said I'd written: that the LP were more right wing per se than the Tories.

As for that point though: of course the LP were a party of the right when they kicked Clause 4 into touch. They did that in the mis 90s and embraced the market in the guise of 'the third way'.

You're having a nightmare here.

 

[Tree13]

Yes, I did...which isn't what you originally said I'd written: that the LP were more right wing per se than the Tories.

As for that point though: of course the LP were a party of the right when they kicked Clause 4 into touch. They did that in the mis 90s and embraced the market in the guise of 'the third way'.

You're having a nightmare here.

It will come as no surprise to you that your opinion of what amounts to a nightmare does not accord with my own. Or reality.

The phrase "A party of the right" is a commonly-used euphemism, as you are well aware, for the likes of the BNP. It is used to differentiate between those far-right groups and the more mainstream centre-right political organisations, such as the Tories (insert obligatory davek retort that the Tories and the BNP are one and the same here).

If you describe the Labour party in this way, you are placing them to the right of the Tories on the political spectrum. Labour's policies are however, for the majority, to the left of the Tory positions on most issues: ergo Labour cannot be to the right of the Tories on the political spectrum. Yet you keep describing them as "a party of the right."

But they aren't. They have adopted some centre-right policies on the economy, and did this during the Blair years to swallow the middle ground of the electorate. They've also abandoned some of the more militant leftist policies that rendered them unelectable during the 80's, but they are still firmly camped with one foot in the centre left and one in the centre right - which places them in the middle overall.

You're displaying an example of the leftist attitude of "if it's not left enough to suit my tastes, it's right wing": A stubborn refusal to acknowledge that there are many more positions on the political spectrum than just "Left" and "Right". An equivalent would be me calling the Tories "left wing" because I think they are not tough enough on immigration.

 

[davek]

It will come as no surprise to you that your opinion of what amounts to a nightmare does not accord with my own. Or reality.

The phrase "A party of the right" is a commonly-used euphemism, as you are well aware, for the likes of the BNP. It is used to differentiate between those far-right groups and the more mainstream centre-right political organisations, such as the Tories (insert obligatory davek retort that the Tories and the BNP are one and the same here).

If you describe the Labour party in this way, you are placing them to the right of the Tories on the political spectrum. Labour's policies are however, for the majority, to the left of the Tory positions on most issues: ergo Labour cannot be to the right of the Tories on the political spectrum. Yet you keep describing them as "a party of the right."

But they aren't. They have adopted some centre-right policies on the economy, and did this during the Blair years to swallow the middle ground of the electorate. They've also abandoned some of the more militant leftist policies that rendered them unelectable during the 80's, but they are still firmly camped with one foot in the centre left and one in the centre right - which places them in the middle overall.

You're displaying an example of the leftist attitude of "if it's not left enough to suit my tastes, it's right wing": A stubborn refusal to acknowledge that there are many more positions on the political spectrum than just "Left" and "Right". An equivalent would be me calling the Tories "left wing" because I think they are not tough enough on immigration.

That whole response rests on you telling me what I can understand 'party of the right' to mean, and I dont recognise your definition of it. Why is my describing the LP as a party of the right the same as saying they are to the right of the Tories? I've given you my definition of what it is to be a rightist party: the embracement of the market in all or nearly all areas of our lives. That's the journey Labour have made since the 1990s, from a democratic socialist party to a neo-liberal party. That's why they are a party of the right. Millions of people now recognise that and have deserted them because of it. I dont care where they fall on the spectrum between centre ground and the right - whether it's beyond the Tories or less right wing than them - but they are not in any way shape or form a leftist party and haven't been for years. They had a couple of last chances (response to the crash and Scottish independence) and spurned them by imposing austerity for the Tories locally and snuffing out the flower of democracy north of the border.

 

[Brennan]

Davek is correct on this. Calling Labour a 'party of the right' does not mean they are to the right of the Tories politically. Just because somebody else understands 'party of the right' to mean something does not mean it reflects Davek's view or that it is the commonly held opinion.

 

[Clint Planet]

I'm pretty much opposed to everything UKIP stand for but I can't help have a grudging admiration for their PR at least . They manage to pander to the frightened middle classes but tap into the anger of the working class, paint a city banker leader as an 'Everyman ' , when pulled up on outrageous views or posting of some of their members they blame a 'media conspiracy ' and they claim to be battling against the political establishment yet their first mp is a member of that establishment whose changed sides whilst the whole time they campaign against the 'Brussels gravy train' from the inside .

I'm amazed they get away with but they do and not only that they are prospering . I can't help but think like the lib dem's the worst thing that can happen for then is they get a semblance of 'power' and people may have a harder look at them .

*applause*

 

[Groucho]

The only positive I can think for folk voting UKIP is that it weakens the Tories and is therefore a Labour boost.

Vile otherwise.

POLITICS FFS!!!!

 

[Clint Planet]

The likes of Cyril Smith and Jimmy Savile got away with it for much longer to be fair, and for pretty much the same reasons you claim.

I bet they were bloody Muslims, too!

 

[Clint Planet]

I

The phrase "A party of the right" is a commonly-used euphemism, as you are well aware, for the likes of the BNP. It is used to differentiate between those far-right groups and the more mainstream centre-right political organisations, such as the Tories (insert obligatory davek retort that the Tories and the BNP are one and the same here).

If you describe the Labour party in this way, you are placing them to the right of the Tories on the political spectrum.

No he isn't. You're not making sense at all, here. I mean, I can see what you're trying to say - but it is based on a massive misconception revolving around your own (rather idiosyncratic) opinion of what the phrase "a part of the right" means. Davek is saying that the LP of Blair was no longer "left wing" in any traditional interpretation of the phrase. Hence, a party of the right.

 

[Groucho]

Clint mate, I mostly agree with you, just chill mate.

 

[Clint Planet]

I'm a cucumber, dude. Cool as recently melted ice. I just worry about Davek being bullied. You know he can't stick up for himself.

 

[Elong]

I'm a cucumber, dude. Cool as recently melted ice. I just worry about Davek being bullied. You know he can't stick up for himself.

lol