The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

[Tubey]

That sounds a bit like "I voz only following instructions". It's people dealing with people, labour, Tory, Libdem or whatever.........

I'll give an example to support the above then actually - when I worked there, you had to shop a set amount of people for investigation every week. It didn't matter whether you actually came about that number of people who deserved investigation; you had to do it regardless.

So say you had to refer 10 people for investigation, but only came across, say, 5 dodgy ones, then you had to shop 5 perfectly fine benefit claimants.

If you didn't, you'd be called to a meeting with your manager asking why. In turn, that manager would be called to a meeting with their higher-up, and if the Job Centre overall were failing to meet targets then the regional manager would be called into a meeting, and so on.

So it wasn't about "helping" benefit claimants most of the time - it was looking for ways to get them off the things at all costs. Late for an appointment by five minutes? Strike, off the list, one claimant down towards the target.

This is 100% spot on - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/stitching-up-claimants-part-job-says-3537051

The coalition policies had a very direct effect on the dehumanising of benefit claimants within 12 months. I was there during the transition - the difference was disgusting, not encouraging. Everyone who works at a Job Centre wants to help people into work, and the vast majority of those who go also want work, but there's right ways to go about it and wrong ways - treating people like subhuman scum for claiming the benefit no matter what the circumstance is the wrong way.

 

[peteblue]

I'll give an example to support the above then actually - when I worked there, you had to shop a set amount of people for investigation every week. It didn't matter whether you actually came about that number of people who deserved investigation; you had to do it regardless.

So say you had to refer 10 people for investigation, but only came across, say, 5 dodgy ones, then you had to shop 5 perfectly fine benefit claimants.

If you didn't, you'd be called to a meeting with your manager asking why. In turn, that manager would be called to a meeting with their higher-up, and if the Job Centre overall were failing to meet targets then the regional manager would be called into a meeting, and so on.

So it wasn't about "helping" benefit claimants most of the time - it was looking for ways to get them off the things at all costs. Late for an appointment by five minutes? Strike, off the list, one claimant down towards the target.

This is 100% spot on - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/stitching-up-claimants-part-job-says-3537051

The coalition policies had a very direct effect on the dehumanising of benefit claimants within 12 months. I was there during the transition - the difference was disgusting, not encouraging. Everyone who works at a Job Centre wants to help people into work, and the vast majority of those who go also want work, but there's right ways to go about it and wrong ways - treating people like subhuman scum for claiming the benefit no matter what the circumstance is the wrong way.

Disgraceful. But my point was that it's not just about the 300 or so Tory MP's. The people who enact and apply this behaviour are the same people who were there under Labour. If I were told/instructed to behave accordingly I would cause mayhem and leave. I find it hard to believe that the various public sector unions just go along with this approach as if it was nothing to do with themselves or their members............

 

[Tubey]

Disgraceful. But my point was that it's not just about the 300 or so Tory MP's. The people who enact and apply this behaviour are the same people who were there under Labour. If I were told/instructed to behave accordingly I would cause mayhem and leave. I find it hard to believe that the various public sector unions just go along with this approach as if it was nothing to do with themselves or their members............

I think it's a combination of a few factors.

Firstly, since 2010, a lot of people have done just that - I know one lady who I used to work with who left as she couldn't morally do it anymore. But ultimately there are going to be people on the front line where a job is a job, and they'll do anything to keep it, especially in the public sector where you basically try and keep a job for life. I can't really blame the front line workers - if they throw a strop and leave, someone else comes in and does it anyway, because no matter what the distaste for the job on the frontline is, policy dictates the job, not the employees.

Secondly, to take your war analogy, I think the reason management find it so easy to do is because benefit claimants are dehumanised into numbers on a sheet for them. There's no face to face contact - all they see is a target they are trying to set, and the number of benefit claimants is the enemy they're trying to battle to get that target. It's like a general who gets a report that 10,000 people died, but ultimately the battle was won so it's job well done.

And therein lies the issue with the Tories. They have completely dehumanised benefit claimants, to the point where if the target was 25,000 and they needed to get a few dozen off the list to make that target, they wouldn't bat an eyelid if they found out those few dozen were legit claimants left destitute by having the rug pulled under them to make that target.

I'll give you an example of just how important the pure numbers are - zero hour contracts. They are quite literally a device that let's employers hire thousands of people risk free, which the government loves as it alters the employment stats. One in four who find work are not employed on a proper contract. At the same time, talented people are being made to accept jobs well underneath what they should earn if they dare to claim a benefit, while general wages fail to rise.

So you have more people in jobs that have no contract or are below their skillset, earning less money than they should, with many joining a merry go round where they flit in and out of employment every month. It's an job and economic recovery built on sand.

 

[Blue 1]

I think it's a combination of a few factors.

Firstly, since 2010, a lot of people have done just that - I know one lady who I used to work with who left as she couldn't morally do it anymore. But ultimately there are going to be people on the front line where a job is a job, and they'll do anything to keep it, especially in the public sector where you basically try and keep a job for life. I can't really blame the front line workers - if they throw a strop and leave, someone else comes in and does it anyway, because no matter what the distaste for the job on the frontline is, policy dictates the job, not the employees.

Secondly, to take your war analogy, I think the reason management find it so easy to do is because benefit claimants are dehumanised into numbers on a sheet for them. There's no face to face contact - all they see is a target they are trying to set, and the number of benefit claimants is the enemy they're trying to battle to get that target. It's like a general who gets a report that 10,000 people died, but ultimately the battle was won so it's job well done.

And therein lies the issue with the Tories. They have completely dehumanised benefit claimants, to the point where if the target was 25,000 and they needed to get a few dozen off the list to make that target, they wouldn't bat an eyelid if they found out those few dozen were legit claimants left destitute by having the rug pulled under them to make that target.

I'll give you an example of just how important the pure numbers are - zero hour contracts. They are quite literally a device that let's employers hire thousands of people risk free, which the government loves as it alters the employment stats. One in four who find work are not employed on a proper contract. At the same time, talented people are being made to accept jobs well underneath what they should earn if they dare to claim a benefit, while general wages fail to rise.

So you have more people in jobs that have no contract or are below their skillset, earning less money than they should, with many joining a merry go round where they flit in and out of employment every month. It's an job and economic recovery built on sand.

Another factor is the training of staff. A friend who still works for the DWP has told me that since IDS took over the training has absolutely gone to [Poor language removed] and half the staff haven't a clue what they're doing.

 

[peteblue]

I think it's a combination of a few factors.

Firstly, since 2010, a lot of people have done just that - I know one lady who I used to work with who left as she couldn't morally do it anymore. But ultimately there are going to be people on the front line where a job is a job, and they'll do anything to keep it, especially in the public sector where you basically try and keep a job for life. I can't really blame the front line workers - if they throw a strop and leave, someone else comes in and does it anyway, because no matter what the distaste for the job on the frontline is, policy dictates the job, not the employees.

Secondly, to take your war analogy, I think the reason management find it so easy to do is because benefit claimants are dehumanised into numbers on a sheet for them. There's no face to face contact - all they see is a target they are trying to set, and the number of benefit claimants is the enemy they're trying to battle to get that target. It's like a general who gets a report that 10,000 people died, but ultimately the battle was won so it's job well done.

And therein lies the issue with the Tories. They have completely dehumanised benefit claimants, to the point where if the target was 25,000 and they needed to get a few dozen off the list to make that target, they wouldn't bat an eyelid if they found out those few dozen were legit claimants left destitute by having the rug pulled under them to make that target.

I'll give you an example of just how important the pure numbers are - zero hour contracts. They are quite literally a device that let's employers hire thousands of people risk free, which the government loves as it alters the employment stats. One in four who find work are not employed on a proper contract. At the same time, talented people are being made to accept jobs well underneath what they should earn if they dare to claim a benefit, while general wages fail to rise.

So you have more people in jobs that have no contract or are below their skillset, earning less money than they should, with many joining a merry go round where they flit in and out of employment every month. It's an job and economic recovery built on sand.

I accept what you say but both Labour and the Tories behave the same. It now comes out that Labour MP's employ people on zero hour contracts as well as Labour councils. They are all equally as bad as each other.......

 

[peteblue]

Another factor is the training of staff. A friend who still works for the DWP has told me that since IDS took over the training has absolutely gone to [Poor language removed] and half the staff haven't a clue what they're doing.

That suggests that they have had a 50% turnover in staff or that they hadn't been trained under Labour.......

 

[Tubey]

I accept what you say but both Labour and the Tories behave the same. It now comes out that Labour MP's employ people on zero hour contracts as well as Labour councils. They are all equally as bad as each other.......

They don't in relation to benefits though - Labour had the balance right; it wasn't soft, you could sanction the arseholes and it felt right to do so, but they didn't treat claimants as criminals by default.

They're the same in relation to zero hour contracts as they're convenient for employment figures for any political party, but in terms of benefits the Tories have been on a very evident ideological crusade which is distinctly different to Labour.

 

[Tubey]

Another factor is the training of staff. A friend who still works for the DWP has told me that since IDS took over the training has absolutely gone to [Poor language removed] and half the staff haven't a clue what they're doing.

Again, perfectly true. I can sum it up in one sentence - "so what the hell are we meant to be doing this week then?"

You used to get an internal email every Monday with a list of changes, and as soon as you understood one change it changed again.

 

[roydo]

Separate thread for the debate later folks?

Thoughts?

 

[Blue 1]

That suggests that they have had a 50% turnover in staff or that they hadn't been trained under Labour.......

Only if you choose to read it that way. It suggests that training is an ongoing thing for all staff and the standard has gone down the pan on IDS' watch.

 

[peteblue]

Separate thread for the debate later folks?

Thoughts?

I'm thinking of not watching it.....

 

[Blue 1]

I'm thinking of not watching it.....

This. It's just going to be a complete bunfight and they'll all lie anyway.

 

[Joey66]

Davek, you don't know what you're talking about.

Research suggests that the Lib Dems have achieved as much as 70% of their manifesto despite being the minority party in this coalition. They have achieved many of the things they wanted to put in place despite not actually winning the election.

To say this is just a 'Tory government' is a) wrong and b) spin.

Just heard Nick Clegg on LBC get ripped apart on ensuring the overseas GDP protected budget l All over the place gos help him tonight if Farage rips into the three of them over this as it was underspent this year by Four BILLION and to off load it we sent it to the EU!!!!!!! So the EU has has 12 Billion of us this year, and Clegg wa spluttering away, I hope he loses his seat he is behind in the polls in Sheffield!

 

[Joey66]

They don't in relation to benefits though - Labour had the balance right; it wasn't soft, you could sanction the arseholes and it felt right to do so, but they didn't treat claimants as criminals by default.

They're the same in relation to zero hour contracts as they're convenient for employment figures for any political party, but in terms of benefits the Tories have been on a very evident ideological crusade which is distinctly different to Labour.

Yes but what is going on now on zero hour contracts is open for any employer to abuse it !
EM has stated this will stop if he gets into government I do not hear that from the other two coalition party's !

 

[Joey66]

Ye

So what you are saying is the overwhelming majority (75%) of those businesses have absolutely no links to the Tories? But anything to bash the Tories i guess.

Yes!